Update DECEMBER 12, 2018: The 2018 Farm Bill just passed the U.S. House of Representatives after passing the Senate, including the landmark amendment that will fully legalize industrial hemp at the federal level! The amendment fully removes hemp and derivatives of it from the control of the Drug Enforcement Administration, and opens up massive possibilities for the hemp industry, American agriculture, and health and science to name a few. There was even a partial compromise on the most troubling part of the law, which restricted people with felony convictions from being part of the industry.

Pres. Trump is expected to sign the omnibus bill into law before the year ends, though the timeline is unclear at this time. We’ll have more updates soon!

Update JULY 11, 2018: The current language of the hemp amendment also bans people with felony drug convictions from participating in the hemp industry.

An amendment to the Senate version of the 2018 Farm Bill would fully legalize industrial hemp in the United States.

“This is a big day for hemp,” said Brian Furnish, a hemp grower from Kentucky and president of the U.S. Hemp Roundtable.

The amendment legalizing hemp began as a bill proposed by Mitch McConnell, the Republican majority leader in the Senate. The “Hemp Farming Act of 2018” fully legalizes industrial hemp and all products made from it including CBD oil. Under the new law, the Drug Enforcement Administration and other government agencies would no longer be able to interfere with hemp.

Due to political uncertainty over other parts of the massive Farm Bill, and the lack of hemp related language in the House version of the bill, there are still hurdles ahead before legalization.

2014 vs. 2018: NEW FARM BILL BUILDS ON PARTIAL LEGALIZATION

The United States made industrial hemp illegal for decades until an amendment to the 2014 version of the Farm Bill allowed growing by state-run hemp research programs.

These state-based programs vary, with some allowing only university research and others allowing a limited number of everyday farmers. The U.S. grew about 25,000 acres of hemp under these state programs, mostly in more permissive states like Colorado and Kentucky. However, CBD vendors have faced some legal threats at both the state and federal level. Other government agencies, like the Bureau of Reclamation, have also interfered with growers at times.

HOW THE 2018 FARM BILL WOULD LEGALIZE HEMP

McConnell’s amendment to the 2018 Farm Bill would officially remove hemp from the DEA’s list of controlled substances, ending debate over the legal status of the plant.

All products made from hemp, including CBD oil, would be explicitly legalized as well, so long as they contain less than .3 percent THC (the substance which makes people “feel high” in psychoactive cannabis). State agriculture departments, along with Native American tribes, would be free to regulate hemp just as they do any other crop like corn or carrots.

BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FOR HEMP BUT CONFLICT OVER 2018 FARM BILL

In a historic moment for hemp legalization, the Senate passed the 2018 Farm Bill with the hemp amendment included. Members of both parties support hemp in an unusual display of bipartisan agreement. However, since the House version of the Farm Bill does not include the same amendment, hemp’s future is still up in the air.

Before it can appear before the president for his signature, the House and Senate must form a “Conference Committee” to iron out differences between the two versions of the 2018 Farm Bill. Conferees, appointed from both parties, will meet to debate the final version. Hemp advocates hope that, with McConnell’s enthusiastic support, conferees are likely to back hemp.

Still, “there’s always political conflict in Washington,” Furnish warned.

A disagreement over Food Stamps is one possible source of conflict. The House version of the bill includes controversial changes that would reduce the number of people eligible for the program. Disagreement over provisions like these could also put hemp legalization at risk.

Though the hemp industry overall enthusiastically supports the hemp amendment, there are a few dissenting voices. Veronica Carpio, of Grow Hemp Colorado, objects to hemp-only legalization bills which allows some growers to profit off the cannabis plant while growers and users of psychoactive cannabis remain in prison.

“No one goes to prison for hemp charges, but lives are ruined over marijuana,” she emphasized.

HEMP LEGALIZATION IS CLOSER THAN EVER TO REALITY

The 2018 farm bill is an omnibus piece of legislation which ensures continued funding for numerous agricultural and social programs. Pres. Donald Trump is almost certain to sign it when it finally reaches his desk.

Hemp’s legalization may come through alternative methods, but Furnish urges supporters to voice their favor.

“Contact your representatives and tell them to support McConnell’s hemp language,” he said.

One easy way to do so is to complete this form on the U.S. Hemp Roundtable website.

The post 2018 Farm Bill Could Fully Legalize Industrial Hemp In USA appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

In late Winter of 2010, I suffered from mysterious sleep sweating which woke me up every hour of the night. Extremely uncomfortable & sweaty, I would disgustingly peel off the blanket to dry myself. Moments later, the sweat would dry and the winter chills would resume. This process of sweating, waking, taking the blanket off and putting it back on repeated for well over a week.

Then one day while chattin’ with my mom in her bedroom, I noticed she was using the exact same blanket. In that moment I had an epiphany: the blanket could have been the reason for my sweating. I asked her if she had been sweating abnormally in her sleep as I had. To my confirmation, she’d exclaimed, “Oh my God! How’d You know?!”

It was that moment that led to the creation of iLoveBad, but for us it’s always been about more than making hemp clothing or a comfortable blanket. We believe hemp can make people’s lives better, as we discovered when we researched hemp blankets.

UNDERSTANDING SLEEP SWEATING & SYNTHETIC FIBER BLANKETS

Beginning that day, my wife and I began researching as much as we could about this night sweating problem.

With just a few hours of google searches, we realized that intense sleep sweating, otherwise known as Hyperhidrosis, was somewhat of a worldwide epidemic that seemed to have no clear answer.  Further, we discovered the blankets we were sweating under was the cause of the sweating because it was made from synthetic fibers (Nylon, Polyester, Acrylic, etc) that are known to be non-breathable, which means that those fibers keep oxygen from entering our bodies through our skin (our body’s largest organ), causing our bodies to suffocate & overheat.

If you own a microfiber couch or a car seat, you can detect the sweating against your skin. Over time, I believe that prolonged exposure to these fabrics causes our bodies to suffer. Even though our bodies are magical in their ability to restore balance, this sweating is extremely counter-productive. Sleep is supposed to restore our bodies, but instead they work overtime!

Realizing all this, we immediately sought for a blanket made with natural fibers. Surprisingly, there were very few options to choose from. Granted, it was 2010 when this was taking place prior to the organic/natural living craze that had swept the world. The blankets we had seen were either too small, too thin, or not soft enough. The only one that came close to what we were looking for cost about $500!

CREATING OUR OWN HEMP BLANKETS

So instead of purchasing something to get by, we decided to make one ourselves. That decision led us to the re-discovery of hemp, a forgotten weed-like plant that was once the staple of American agriculture.

Because of hemp’s renewability (grows rapidly like weeds), versatility (can be used for so many different applications), and environmental benefits (in that it doesn’t require a lot of water to grow as well as pesticides to ward off bugs), it was an easy fiber choice for us to go with.  We then found a local fabric vendor in LA along with a seamstress to help us design & sew the blanket.

We spent about $200 to complete the project and the results were beautiful. Our blanket feels incredibly soft, being that it’s fleece, and magically stopped my mysterious sleep sweating!

We loved it so much that we had to make more for friends and family. The growing excitement over our organic hemp blankets eventually evolved into a business that now includes undies, tees & socks. All our products are comfortable, but they also bring awareness to the incredibly dynamic hemp fiber as well as the many benefits of natural living in general.

WHY HEMP MATTERS: IT’S MORE THAN JUST HEMP BLANKETS & SOCKS

There were a lot of reasons why we could’ve gone with hemp as a business and every single one of those reasons would validate its use.

However, the one aspect that really motivated us to go with hemp was the fact that it was erroneously labeled as a Schedule 1 drug by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). Hemp was banned banned as a crop by the United States Government for nearly a hundred years, until 2014.

Further, the U.S. government used propaganda to demonize this harmless plant. The goal of all this was to coerce our society to believe that all forms of cannabis, including hemp, will get you high and do really scary things. Ironically, the government still allowed hemp imports, leading many thousands of dollars to flow overseas annually.

We’ve all been misled at some point in our lives and though it’s not cool, it is what it is. This situation however really bums us out because it reminds us of how unaware & gullible we can be as a society and as individuals. Being unaware doesn’t have to be unhealthy but this lack of awareness led us to judge, criminalize (unjust imprisonment), and destroy the lives of so many people & groups associated with it over the years.

I bring this up not to be sour but rather to remind our collective society to reserve our judgement about everything. Chances are, we really don’t understand them to begin with. We often fear that in which we don’t understand (especially drugs like Marijuana, psilocybin mushrooms, MDMA, and LSD); we all know this.

When you think about it, you’ll easily deduct that fear is the root cause of our insecurities. Fear leads to our anxieties, depressions, and a host of psychological disorders. Likewise, it inevitably stunts creativity! By reserving our judgement about the unknown and perhaps even embracing them as a creation of a higher being, I believe this will drastically mitigate our fear and subsequently dispel the anxieties that comes with it. Again, there are so many reasons to champion hemp back to its glory days and we’re all about them.

But because the most common mental illness in our society is anxiety, we also care to promote the ideology and mental benefits that comes with supporting hemp.

NATURAL FIBERS & ORGANIC HEMP BLANKETS HELP YOU REST

To sum it all up, blankets made of synthetic fibers (such as Polyester, Nylon and Acrylic) are non-breathable.  This blocks our skin from the necessary oxygen it breathes in. Blankets made of natural fibers such as hemp, organic cotton, wool, silk and so forth are more breathable. Natural fibers allow our bodies to effectively collect the oxygen it requires.

Supporting hemp teaches us about the idea of reserving judgement and fear towards the unknown, like hemp and even other currently illegal substances. Consciously raising awareness for unconditional acceptance and love, reducing anxiety, and inspiring limitless creativity

Working together, we can all meet our daily hurdles en route to manifesting our highest aspirations.

The post Hemp Blankets Can Drastically Change Your Life for the Better appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

Delta 8 supplements are a new class of products that are rapidly flooding the hemp market. While you may see them sold from brands that also sell CBD, these products create a very distinct sensation. Consumers that try Delta 8 feel stoned, making this more like psychoactive cannabis (“marijuana”) than CBD. 

Because these supplements come from legal industrial hemp, Delta 8 supplements may be legal to possess anywhere in the United States. Many experts think this is a legal loophole that the government will close very soon.

“Law enforcement and regulatory bodies don’t necessarily like it when you exploit loopholes that can get people high,” commented Jordan Lams, founder of Moxie Seeds and Extracts. 

Lams, who has over decade’s experience in the cannabis and hemp industries, helped us understand this substance.

Editor’s Note: In November, Jordan Lams visited the Ministry of Hemp podcast to discuss Delta 8. -KO

For now, various companies like Exhale Wellness are producing Delta 8 products and are widely available. We thought it was important to create this guide to help you understand this new cannabinoid, how it’s made, and how to safely use it if you choose to try it. 

While we suspect Delta 8 is safe to use as other forms of cannabis, we didn’t want anyone to try it without realizing how it differs from CBD. 

Table of Contents

• What is Delta 8? How is Delta 8 different from CBD?
• How is Delta 8 made? Is it safe?
• Is Delta 8 legal?
• How do you use Delta 8?
• Will the government ban Delta 8?

What is Delta-8 THC And How Does It Make You Feel?

Most Delta-8 is made from hemp and often sold by CBD companies. If you look at the marketing for these products, it’s not always clear what you are getting into.

For legal reasons, most companies won’t openly advertise the fact that Delta 8 gets you stoned. 

Rather than CBD, Delta-8-THC is much more similar to Delta-9-THC. Commonly just called THC, this is the main active ingredient found in psychoactive cannabis (“marijuana”). When consumed, it can cause euphoria, relaxation, pain relief along with giddiness, creative moods, or even potentially make you more anxious … In other words, Delta 8 causes most or all of the effects commonly associated with the regular form of THC. 

Delta 8 is made from hemp but, unlike CBD, it will get you high.

“It’s probably a nuanced difference from Delta-9-THC,” said Lams. “Molecularly, it’s pretty darn similar but it’s not exactly the same.”

The chemical differences between the two forms THC are very small, and they both interact with receptors in our brain and nervous system (the “endocannabinoid system”). For more information, look at our article which compares CBD and THC. 

Some people do experience slightly different effects. We asked our readers on Twitter, and looked at some consumer reports on Reddit. Many people report feeling more of a physical, “body high” from Delta 8, with less of the mental effects of THC/marijuana. 

“My experience with it has been very pleasant, from a consumption standpoint,” said Lams.

Remember though, experiences vary a great deal from person to person.

How is Delta-8 made? Is it Safe?

If you’re new to sensations of feeling high, we recommend you proceed with caution … First, however, we want to address whether these products are safe or FDA approved.

We prefer to recommend plant-based compounds The process of transforming one cannabinoid into another sounds unnatural, but Lams said that’s a misconception. To create Delta 8, chemists expose CBD extract to a process called isomerization. 

“It’s not a scary process with a lot of chemicals,” said Lams. “It’s really just manipulation of the chemistry through heat and pressure.”

Chemists working in the legal cannabis industry have been creating Delta 8 from regular THC for a while, but using CBD is relatively new. 

“The onset when you take too much can really be overwhelming.”

Jordan Lams, Moxie Seeds And Extracts

Even so, hemp brands “quickly scaled up the ability to do isomerization,” he continued. “So the chemical purity of the products they’re converting from CBD … it’s pretty good stuff.”

Cannabis has a very long history of use without any fatal overdoses. So Delta 8 is probably physically safe to consume. Of course, we’re not doctors, and there’s a chance it could interact with prescription drugs or other substances. In addition, getting high causes significant mental changes that make it more dangerous to drive or perform other risky activities. 

Probably the biggest risk is that inexperienced users might take too much and have mentally challenging experiences. 

“I do know of a couple of different people that were inexperienced THC users that used Delta 8 and ended up having an adverse overdose and checking themselves into hospitals,” cautioned Lams. “The onset when you take too much can really be overwhelming.” 

To restate, they probably weren’t in physical danger but were mentally very overwhelmed. 

Is Delta-8 THC legal?

After the government legalized hemp at the end of 2018, lots of people grew hemp and produced raw CBD extract. Too much of it! Combine a glut of raw CBD, with a potential legal loophole allowing brands to sell mind-altering substances, and you can see why lots of brands are experimenting with this.

We’re not lawyers and we can’t say for sure what the legal consequences could be for possessing, or especially the manufacture and sales of Delta 8 products. Since Delta 8 made from hemp is so new, most lawyers can’t say for sure either. 

Police field tests probably can’t tell the difference between illegal marijuana and ‘legal’ Delta 8.

Lams compared this substance to kratom, which is under threat by the government, and salvia, a herbal psychedelic that got banned after widespread use. “If you look historically at attempts to utilize loopholes to commercialize psychoactive products, that doesn’t typically go well.” 

A consumer using Delta 8 products is still going to face serious charges if they get caught driving impaired or otherwise put people at risk. 

“In the eyes of the average public safety official, they’re not going to be able to tell the difference.” 

Most field tests used by police probably won’t be able to tell the difference, either. 

Lawyers seem divided about whether Delta 8 is legal at all. The CBD industry is unregulated, and there isn’t much precedent for this kind of thing in the hemp world. 

“It’s such a polarizing legal issue that I think it will be addressed swiftly,” Lams said.

How to Purchase and Use Delta-8?

Never buy Delta 8 from a gas station or other disreputable location. Only purchase from brands that are transparent about their sourcing, manufacturing process, and offer third-party lab results. These lab results should verify the strength of the product and its purity, showing you that it’s free from contaminants like pesticides, mold and heavy metals. The date on the test results should be recent (ideally 6 months or less) and the brand should carry out new tests on every batch.

Even though their effects are very different, Delta 8 supplements are used in much the same way as CBD. Most commonly, you’ll find tinctures, edibles like Delta 8 gummies, and Delta 8 vape cartridges. 

When it comes to dosing, we recommend that you “start low and go slow.” Begin with a very low dose, especially if you are inexperienced. Consider taking half a dropper full (or less) of tincture. Split strong edibles into pieces.

When it comes to dosing, ‘start low and go slow.’

A vape or tincture will usually take effect more quickly than an edible. Sometimes people take too many edibles beause they think it’s “not working.” In reality, it’s just working slowly and can build up dramatically over time. 

If you do take too much Delta 8, don’t panic and remember the sensations will pass. The same advice people give for getting over feeling too stoned applies here: stay calm and hydrated, make yourself comfortable, and find pleasant ways to distract yourself until you sober up.

Conclusion: Is Delta-8 Legal?

If we’ve seemed harsh towards Delta 8, it’s because we don’t want someone stumbling into these products without the proper education. Lams stressed that Delta 8 can benefit people, just like the more common form of THC.

“Having access to something that can provide a different type of therapy, for those seeking medicinal relief, it could be really great.” He said. “More access is important for scientific research.”

“The looming issue is what’s the FDA going to do? What’s the DEA going to do?”

Jordan Lams, Moxie Seeds And Extracts

Yet it’s a form of relief which could disappear at any time. He doesn’t think this will threaten the CBD industry as a whole. It’s likely to be dealt with in a “standalone” way. Still, the future is uncertain.

“The looming issue is what’s the FDA going to do? What’s the DEA going to do, what are state and local public safety officials going to do?”

He continued, “I don’t believe this should be a criminal issue, when the overall regulatory framework is so new.” 

Even so, it’s possible that we could even see police raids against establishments selling Delta 8 and other serious consequences for the people who manufacture and sell these products. 

We’ll continue to update this article as this fast-moving issue develops.

The post What is Delta 8 THC? Effects, Safety & Legality appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

Canada is divided into provinces that, like the states in the U.S., have their own laws and regulations separate from federal rulings. That means that although the Cannabis Act applies to all of Canada, depending on where you live your ability to purchase cannabis may differ. As the law rolled out some infrastructure problems made the transition a little bumpy, with supply chain issues and confusing regulations. When it came to accessing CBD products, in particular, consumers were really confused.

Is CBD Oil Legal in Canada?

This is where things get tricky. CBD has had a complicated journey towards legislation in the U.S. with different states determining it to be either legal or illegal, with the final say often coming down to how it was produced. CBD derived from hemp has generally been considered permissible while CBD from marijuana has not.

With the passing of the Farm Bill, it was thought that all hemp-derived CBD would be totally legal but a press release from the FDA threw more confusion into the mix with a warning that CBD cannot be added to foods, that health claims would be rigorously tested, and a suggestion that in the future they would “consider whether there are circumstances in which certain cannabis-derived compounds might be permitted in a food or dietary supplement.”

One of the sticking points seems to be that although there are studies showing CBD can alleviate feelings of social anxiety and that it reduces inflammation and works as a pain reliever, medical claims made by CBD producers and manufacturers are untested and not regulated federally.

As reported by Ministry of Hemp, in some states CBD products are sold out in the open in major grocery chains and yet in other states, people are still being arrested for selling CBD products.

An Overview Of Legal Cannabis in Canada

The new official rules in Canada allow members of the public to possess and share up to 30 grams of legally acquired cannabis and grow up to 4 plants per residence for personal use. That provision that the cannabis must be “legally acquired” states that it must come from an approved provincial or territorial retailer. It’s also of note that in the official announcement mentions of CBD products specifically are missing.

The Cannabis Act states that “Other products, such as edible products and concentrates, will be legal for sale approximately one year after the Cannabis Act has come into force and federal regulations for their production have been developed and brought into force.”

It seems that the Canadian government is going with a soft launch focusing on psychoactive cannabis containing THC with plans to address CBD and other cannabis products at a later date.

Coupled with this slow rollout is the fact that government officials and lawmakers have not made a distinction between products containing THC and CBD, as Trina Fraser, partner at Brazeau Seller Law, in Ottawa, Ontario explained:

“CBD, in and of itself, falls within the definition of “cannabis” in the federal Cannabis Act.  As such, it is regulated just like all other cannabis products containing THC. Hemp farmers can grow hemp for the purpose of CBD extraction, but the plant must be sold to a federally licensed processor to conduct the CBD extraction, and then the CBD is subject to the same rules as all cannabis extracts.”

Canadian Cannabis Law Causes Confusion Over CBD Products

Fraser explained that there was a proposal to permit natural health products containing CBD, but it seems the process was stalled and never completed.

As CBD oil products do not have the same effect as THC consumers believe falsely that they are always legal. “There seems to be a pervasive misunderstanding as to the legal status of CBD,” said Fraser.

“Mary” from Ottawa [name changed to protect from possible prosecution] is one such confused consumer. She uses CBD to control her anxiety and told us that life without it is immeasurably worse. “I really need my CBD products, they help to keep me relaxed and to deal with symptoms of PTSD, but I really don’t understand whether or not I am allowed to legally purchase them. I order offline from a US company and they mail it to me. I have always received it with no problem, but I find I am anxious until I get my package,” she said.

What Are Licenced Producers?

Steven Looi, Director of Origination at White Sheep Corp and an industry expert from Toronto said that “CBD is treated the exact same way that THC is treated, in fact, all cannabinoids receive the same treatment in Canada. CBD is illegal unless it comes from a licensed producer.”

Health Canada claims that to become a licensed producer in Canada applicants must go through a screening process that is the toughest in the world for cannabis producers.

Consumers cannot legally purchase cannabis from any other producer.

“I really need my CBD products, they help to keep me relaxed and to deal with symptoms of PTSD, but I really don’t understand whether or not I am allowed to legally purchase them.” — “Mary,” a Canadian CBD consumer

According to Statistics Canada, there are over 100 licensed producers registered in Canada, although there may not be that number currently producing and selling their products.

Only those people with a prescription for medical marijuana can purchase CBD and only through companies authorized by the MMPR — the Marijuana for Medical Purposes Regulations. Of those 100 licensed Canadian producers, only 23 have been registered under the MMPR and are able to sell directly to the public. Therefore legally purchasing CBD in Canada, even if you have a prescription, can be very difficult.

Change is Coming For Canadian CBD Consumers

Changes are coming soon though in conjunction with ongoing public consultation, slated to be completed by the end of 2022. “All sorts of new product types will enter the legal marketplace and permit the legal sale of many products that are currently only available illegally,” said Fraser.

However, although it may seem that all of this uncertainty will be ironed out by years end, purchasing CBD in Canada will still require effort, despite the new laws. Legal CBD products will continue to only be available through authorized retailers and products will carry security features on the packaging like cigarettes and alcohol. There will also be strict limitations in place in terms of the health claims producers can make. Health Canada follows the legislative leaders and also makes no distinction between CBD from hemp or marijuana.

Looi pointed out that “For folks going the legal route for a CBD, legalization will give them greater access, and more products. For folks that always sourced their meds in the black market, not a whole lot has changed.”

Once edibles and other cannabis products are legalized Looi said Canadians will have access to some of the same types of products that are currently flooding the American market.

“Canadians will have better access to a proliferation of CBD products. Marketing, storytelling, and promotion will encourage many new consumers to purchase products featuring CBD,” he said.

As with any emerging industry, there are certain to be teething problems both in Canada and the United States. Unfortunately for CBD users in Canada, the much longed-for legalization has not automatically made CBD accessible for all.

The post Why Can’t I Easily Get Legal CBD Oil In Canada? appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

In episode 61, our podcast host Matt is learning about a new cannabinoid that’s just now hitting the wellness market, Delta 8 THC. Jordan Lams, CEO of Moxie, a cannabis cultivation, and manufacturing company out of Long Beach, CA, is Matt’s guest.

Jordan was our expert for the Ministry of Hemp’s guide to Delta 8 THC, so we were excited to get him on the show. Matt and Jordan discuss everything you need to know about Delta 8 THC: is it legal, how and why are people using it, where does it come from and what impact will it have on the CBD market.

But that’s not all … to close out the podcast, Matt takes a dose of Delta 8 THC too and records his experience.

Here are our guides:

• Delta 8 carts
• Delta 8 gummies

About Moxie and Jordan Lams:

MOXIE is a recognized leader in cannabis with over 90 global industry awards. They cultivate, manufacture and distribute high quality cannabis products in California, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Arizona with more states coming soon. It is their mission to improve the quality of life and well-being by producing the highest quality cannabis products globally.

At age 28, it’s hard not to say that Jordan Lams has moxie. Ten years ago, Lams was skeptical of cannabis but started researching it as a teenager when a friend challenged his negative assumptions. It took him a year and a review of his findings with his family doctor before he changed his mind. Later, his sister’s tragic struggle with leukemia helped solidify his desire to be a part of the cannabis movement.

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Delta 8 Explained: Complete Episode Transcript

Below you’ll find the complete transcript of episode 61 of the Ministry of Hemp podcast, “Delta 8 THC Exploration Podcast”:

Matt Baum:
I’m Matt Baum. And this is the Ministry of Hemp Podcast brought to you by ministryofhemp.com. America’s leading advocate for hemp and hemp education.

Well, it’s finally happening. I’ve been threatening for a few weeks now, but we’re doing it. It’s the whole show about a new cannabinoid, Delta-8-THC. And not only are we going to talk about it? My conversation today is with Jordan Lams, the CEO of Moxie, cannabis cultivator and manufacturer. Jordan is amazing and has a huge breadth of knowledge. And I was thrilled to find somebody who could actually talk about this because there just isn’t much information on Delta-8-THC, right now anyway.

I know I had a much better understanding of what it is and what it does after I spoke with Jordan, but that’s not where this ends. I have actually just taken some Delta-8-THC. So after the interview, this is where I sit down to do the editing process. So it’ll have some time to kick in and whatnot. I’m going to let you know exactly how my experience was. And if you don’t get an episode this week, then I guess you know what to tell my loved ones happened. So that’s a joke. I’m not scared at all, but we’ll see. And like I said, I’ll tell you all about my experience after my conversation with Jordan Lams.

Is Delta 8 THC legal?

Matt Baum:
Perfect. And where are you talking to me from right now?

Jordan Lams:
I am talking to you from Long Beach, California.

Matt Baum:
All right. Bet the weather’s a little nicer there. So, I’m in Omaha, Nebraska.

Jordan Lams:
It is hot today.

Matt Baum:
Oh, really? Well then I don’t want to hear-

Jordan Lams:
It’s like 90.

Matt Baum:
… no complaints out of you, sir.

Jordan Lams:
None.

Matt Baum:
So Jordan, I brought you on the show because we are now seeing Delta-8-THC sort of hitting a similar market to the CBD, CBN, CBG wellness market. And quite honestly, it’s so new that I really don’t know anything about it. And a lot of people have been asking questions, and I was actually really hesitant to even talk about it on the show because I didn’t even know if it was legal. So why don’t we just start… Before we even get into what it is, is Delta-8-THC legal?

Jordan Lams:
I think that probably depends on who you ask.

Matt Baum:
Okay.

Jordan Lams:
It’s definitely coming up as an item for debate at the moment. The argument amongst some law firms is that because it’s being, in this context that we’re talking about now, derived as a by-product of a process from CBD oil, that it’s not derived from cannabis, quote-unquote, and therefore it is legal. Chemically speaking, it’s still THC. It’s just not Delta-9-THC, which is the most prevalent psychoactive compound that is derived from the consumption of cannabis after you heat it up. So, yeah, I think it’s still up in the air.

Matt Baum:
So as far as I understand it, and again, I’m not a lawyer, but I live in Nebraska, which has some pretty strict cannabis laws, as you can imagine. And I’m pretty sure the law doesn’t say, “Well, Delta-9-THC, that’s the problem. That’s what’s illegal. And if you’re caught with Delta-9-THC, you’re going to jail, buddy.”, or whatever. I mean, marijuana has been basically decriminalized in Nebraska for the most part, but I don’t necessarily think the differences between a Delta-8 and a Delta-9… Is that where the nebulous thing comes in right now?

Jordan Lams:
That’s I think the… That and the fact that it’s a derivative of CBD in this context is… the wedge with which some attorneys are trying to force their argument through. And that differentiation between Delta-9 versus Delta-8 in some jurisdictions, it is delineated very specifically-

Matt Baum:
Really?

Jordan Lams:
… as still being considered THC. Yeah. So it varies market to market.

Matt Baum:
Okay.

Jordan Lams:
Particularly in more regulated markets where you actually have licensed businesses that do cultivate and extract. They’re more likely to specify, but in places where decriminalization those are usually kind of broad stroke legislations. And so you don’t always have that level of specificity.

The chemistry behind Delta 8 THC

Matt Baum:
Now, again, I’m not asking you to play a cop or a lawyer. These are strictly opinions here that we’re talking about but in other cases… And I’ve spoken to not too long ago, actually, I spoke to a guy that works in a lab in Oregon, and they do a lot of testing to make sure that what is actually in the bottle of CBD is in the bottle of CBD. And he was telling me one of the things that he’s noticed with Delta-8-THC, because they are taking the CBD and affecting it chemically and changing it into a different chemical that in and of itself could be illegal as well, based on laws that were made to stop people from say, buying cough medicine and turning it into meth or something. Is there any worry [crosstalk 00:05:04] about that?

Jordan Lams:
Definitely, what it reminds me of is the early days of the California medical market, before we had regulation. It was very specific in the state statute, as well as at the federal level that manufacturing of cannabis products using solvents was illegal. And so there was a contingent of attorneys, again, that took the position that CO2 because it’s not alcohol or a solvent by the maybe the more traditional sense that it didn’t qualify for that. And that was a bit of a, well maybe more than a bit of a loophole that they were trying to-

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Jordan Lams:
… exploit-

Matt Baum:
I was going to say.

Jordan Lams:
… but they got a lot of buy-in across the industry in that thinking because it was fairly dominant law firms, at least in the space at the time that were suggesting this. And so it actually led to the proliferation of CO2 extraction throughout the industry. That coupled with the scientific community really does use super-critical and sub-critical CO2 extraction in a lot of different laboratory applications-

Matt Baum:
Okay, real quick. I don’t mean to interrupt you-

Jordan Lams:
… it didn’t stop people from getting prosecuted.

Matt Baum:
I don’t mean to interrupt you that’s seriously-

Jordan Lams:
No problem.

Matt Baum:
… the reason why CO2 extraction took off the way it did?

Jordan Lams:
It’s definitely one of the big contributing factors, yeah.

Matt Baum:
No kidding.

Jordan Lams:
The flip to that, though, is that if you talk to any analytical chemist or real… organic chemist that’s got a lot of lab experience, supercritical and sub-critical CO2 is usually the go-to methodology. That being said, if you’re a real, real consumer of cannabis products, unless you’re using very hard to find subcritical CO2 extractions, you’re likely to have a version of a product that is vastly inferior, subjectively of course, to what a hydrocarbon extraction or even a solventless extraction or water extraction is what they call solvent less would produce. And even then, on the objective side CO2, you’re forcing a physical reaction that’s just ripping everything off the plant. Whereas hydrocarbon, it’s like nature’s lock and key. Cannabinoids, terpenes, those are hydrocarbons. So that’s a perfect chemical reaction where you’re only getting what you want, and you’re post-processing is far less. Whereas with CO2, you get everything and the kitchen sink-

Matt Baum:
Gotcha.

Jordan Lams:
… depending on the parameters of the extraction.

What is Delta 8, anyway?

Matt Baum:
Okay. So let’s get into it. Delta-8-THC, give me a broad spectrum, [inaudible 00:00:00] doubt view. What is it?

Jordan Lams:
So there’s… It’s just another cannabinoid. It is a tetrahydrocannabinol. So it’s a THC molecule, but Delta-8 is just a different isomer of THC. And oftentimes it’s found not necessarily as a degrative product of a Delta-9-THC, but oftentimes in certain processes where there’s a lot of heat and pressure used to do distillation or various types of… I guess, processing you end up potentially oftentimes by accident converting some of that Delta-9 into Delta-8. And then there was, over the last couple of years, a trend where it was being done intentionally. Now, not intentionally because people wanted the Delta-8 outcome, but in the process that you use to really, really tighten the fraction as it’s called in chemistry, the fraction of the chemicals that you’re trying to remove. As you tighten that down and make it more pure, you’re putting it under really extreme conditions. And what people were shooting for has been come to known as water clear. So it’s a cannabis oil that literally in a jar looks almost as clear as water, even the way it refracts light.
There’s no weird effect to the way that you see through the product. And that being said, in doing that process a lot of times, not always, but a lot of times, you end up causing that conversion from Delta-9 to Delta-8. And then from there, I think that’s what spurred the, “Oh, oh. Hey, isomerization is really a thing that we can do with these cannabinoids. What if you can take CBD, which is abundant and cheap, and turn it into something of higher value.”.

Matt Baum:
So this is a byproduct. It’s not something that occurs naturally? It’s actually a byproduct?

Jordan Lams:
It can occur naturally. So here’s the thing about even Delta-9. Delta-9 is an activated version of the acidic form of THC. So if you were to take a raw cannabis flower that’s loaded up with THC. It’s not usually much Delta-9. It’s not usually activated. It’s in its acidic form. And when you heat that flower up, either in a joint or in the oven, making an edible or in a bowl, when the flame hits it, you’re doing what’s called decarboxylating the THC. Taking that acidic carboxyl chain and removing it, turning it into the active ingredient-

Matt Baum:
That’s my favorite thing to do with it.

Jordan Lams:
… psychoactive. Exactly. And it’s not dissimilar here. That being said, it could occur naturally. It’s just very rare. So similarly to… For decades, nobody did anything with cannabis except for it to get max THC.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Jordan Lams:
So even for a while, CBD strains were not very available. And it took several years of the CBD industry growing into its own for that to become a readily available genome where it occurs in high concentrations. And similarly, now you see people moving into areas of CBG, CBV, THCV, trying to get those expressions of minor cannabinoids and turn them into majors. But Delta-8 is not one that has been bred for that. So there’s not a lot of, maybe even any to my firsthand knowledge, occurrences of it naturally into the available spectrum of strains that exist.

Matt Baum:
Got you. So when you take regular THC cannabis, and you smoke it, you are sort of doing the same process that you would undergo in the lab to create Delta-8 from Delta-9. Okay, I think I said Delta-8 the first time. When you take THC cannabis and smoke it to get high, you’re effectively doing the same type of process that would take place in a lab where they convert Delta-9 into Delta-8 for other reasons.

Jordan Lams:
Yeah, well, again, it’s a combination of certain things, of heat and pressure. Really that’s the easiest way to simplify it. Think different ratios of heat and pressure, different amounts, and different timelines, and what they call residency times, which are the exposure to those conditions, can impact the way that a molecule will change.

Matt Baum:
Got you.

Jordan Lams:
Now what they’re doing with CBD to Delta-8 is not dissimilar from a high-level perspective, but it is a lot more involved. You’re not going to be able to… Where you could take Delta-9 and turn it into Delta-8 for THCA and turn it into Delta-9 at home in a very, very basic setup. To really get pure CBD into very pure slice of Delta-8 is a little bit more involved. It’s a little bit more expertise-driven-

Matt Baum:
Of course.

Jordan Lams:
… There’s a little bit of an art to it, honestly. It is chemistry, but there… We learned anything from Breaking Bad, right? The last 0.3%, it’s where all the magic is.

Does Delta 8 THC Make You High?

Matt Baum:
Right. Right. So the idea here is to basically take plants that would normally create high levels of CBD because they’re cheaper than plants that would create high levels of THC and create a different THC. Is the experience different? Does it get you high?

Jordan Lams:
It definitely gets you high.

Matt Baum:
Okay.

Jordan Lams:
I have some firsthand experience using Delta-8, and I got to say it was very pleasant. I was actually asked by a producer of CBD who’s making it into Delta-8… Is interested in us manufacturing products and firsthand says, “Well, let me look into the legality here because this is an interesting one.”. But we played around with the material and made some ingestible products with it. We made some gummies, actually. We do a lot of gummy production using regular Delta-9. And I got to say the experience was really pleasant. Maybe a little bit tempered of a potency, even at the same dosage rate. It didn’t seem and granted, it’s a limited experience, so it’s by no means a clinical trial here-

Matt Baum:
Sure, sure. We’re… Neither of us are… We’re playing scientists on the internet. We’re not actual scientists.

Jordan Lams:
Exactly. Play one on TV. Yeah, but for me, it was really, it was maybe a little bit more mellow, a little bit… less imposing upon my general sense of being. And very relaxing… Myself and my partner use gummies every night for sleep. And when we have the dosage dialed in really, really love it. Sometimes, you do a little too much, and you’re a little groggy the next day or not enough, and then you don’t really get the impact. This one was a shot in the dark of dosage. And the effect was really, really nice. And my partner’s not a heavy user. And her experience was really, really great. It wasn’t an overwhelming thing, and that was, I think, a 10-milligram dose that we each tried.

Matt Baum:
Okay, but very similar to what you would get from 10 milligrams of, say, a gummy of THC. But maybe… Is it a head and body high feeling? You said it’s tempered a little bit. Can you go into that?

Jordan Lams:
Yeah, I can. And I want to caveat it with that, one of my biggest soapboxes that I stand on is that cannabis, CBD, hemp, THC, whatever it is, it’s so personalized-

Matt Baum:
Yes.

Jordan Lams:
… so the way it is-

Matt Baum:
Without a doubt.

Jordan Lams:
… for me may be-

Matt Baum:
Without a doubt.

Jordan Lams:
… completely different for those out there listening. And, to me, that process of discovering for yourself is as important as that end result because it’s changing that paradigm of figuring out your being, your health, your body, and the way it reacts to these-

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Jordan Lams:
… different inputs.

Matt Baum:
I mean, even with [crosstalk 00:14:51] CBD, we say, “Start low and go slow.”. And that’s… We repeat that all the time. So this would be the same, of course, the same theory here, start low, go slow, see how it makes you feel.

Jordan Lams:
Yeah. And remember, it’s still THC. So don’t think just because it’s coming from CBD that it’s so vastly different, but I wouldn’t describe it as a head effect for me. It was more… I would say more general relaxation. Like sometimes, when you take a really great full-spectrum CBD product, you can actually observe a… shift in your perception and all of that.

Matt Baum:
Definitely.

Jordan Lams:
It’s still not, it’s not quite high-

Matt Baum:
Right, [crosstalk 00:15:32] it feels more body-driven almost-

Jordan Lams:
Yeah, and more like-

Matt Baum:
… as opposed to head-driven-

Jordan Lams:
… holistic-

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Jordan Lams:
This is more similar to that, but still with definitely a psychoactive element to it like, “Oh yeah, I’m feeling an intoxicant here to some level.”-

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Jordan Lams:
… but not as… sometimes as overt as Delta-9THC can be if that’s a good way to put it.

Matt Baum:
Okay. Yeah.

Jordan Lams:
Sometimes THC just comes to me like, “Oh, and now I’m high.”.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Jordan Lams:
And this was more like, “Oh yeah, I’m high.” but not too high and very relaxed and just a great sense of well-being, I would say.

Matt Baum:
Do you know, I mean, speaking on a chemical level, does it affect the body the same way that THC would?

Jordan Lams:
In most ways, the way that it binds with the different CB1 receptors, I would say… That I would speculate that it is very similar. That being said, there’s not a lot of data out there. There’s not a lot on cannabis in general, but Delta-8 specifically, there hasn’t been access to any volume of it to even observe anecdotally what it’s doing to people up until really recently. So it’s a little bit of uncharted territories, but if we know anything about the broad spectrum of cannabinoids that do exist, is they all slot into their own unique place depending on you as a person-

Matt Baum:
Sure, sure.

Jordan Lams:
… individually. But, they all have their role, and we’re slowly but surely discovering more and more what part each of them has to play.

Potential legal issues around Delta 8

Matt Baum:
So Moxie, are you guys… You’re in the Delta-8-THC game.

Jordan Lams:
We’re not in the Delta-8 world. We’ve been exploring it with a couple people. I think we always air on a pretty extreme conservative side of legal interpretation.

Matt Baum:
I think you have to. Right? I mean, that’s just safe.

Jordan Lams:
Yeah, well, and we’re a licensed THC manufacturer and cultivator in a number of different states. So sometimes, even in California, for instance, as a THC operator, ironically, we’re not allowed to process hemp. Now it seems pretty silly, but that’s just the way, and it is silly, but that’s the way that the regulations were drafted-

Matt Baum:
Yeah [crosstalk 00:17:31] Well, it’s completely different [crosstalk 00:17:31] though. What are you talking about? It’s completely different.

Jordan Lams:
It doesn’t even look at all the same.

Matt Baum:
No. Or smell the same either. So-

Jordan Lams:
No, I always try to bring it back for people that are really trying to understand. There’s not really a difference in the plant here. There’s different versions of it that grow different ways and have different chemical expressions of their contents, but it’s all the same cannabis plant. And it really just is incredible. The broad appeal and application that it has. And there’s still so much left to discover.

Matt Baum:
Oh, of course. Absolutely. I mean, that’s what the show is all about. One thing I want to ask, do you foresee any trouble? It seems like one of the main things that the CBD and the hemp market has tried to push forward is, “We are not marijuana. We don’t get you high. That’s not what we do. And that is why you don’t have to worry about it. This is a treatment for anxiety. This is a treatment for sleep disorders. This is… Or just whole body wellness or whatever, but it’s not marijuana. It’s not marijuana. It’s not marijuana. Oh, by the way, now we can get you high.”.
Do you see any problem there? It makes me really nervous, honestly. And again-

Jordan Lams:
Yeah, I can.

Matt Baum:
… we’re very green-friendly on the show, and I’m very green friendly. So all of it, but at the same time, while we’re trying to… convince the FDA, while we’re trying to convince states like South Dakota and Nebraska who are super hardcore about this stuff, do you foresee any trouble here?

Jordan Lams:
I can’t imagine there won’t be at least some.

Matt Baum:
Right?

Jordan Lams:
I mean, it’s a pretty harsh reversal. Particularly when you think about, say, Kentucky, right? That’s Mitch McConnell’s back yard, and he’s been a big proponent of hemp but a staunch opponent of cannabis.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Jordan Lams:
And to think that where he advocated for his community to have a new driver of economics and even some level of health benefit, that all of a sudden now that’s going to backdoor into the intoxicant world. I can’t imagine that that’s going to be something that really excites him or others like him.

Matt Baum:
I think this is worrisome, quite honestly. And maybe I’m just being a pessimist, but I’m afraid it could set back… Some other CBD purveyors and CBG purveyors and people that are pushing to get that more mainstream and come into food and beverage and other things. I’m afraid that something like this could scare the FDA and have them back off and say, “All right before we legalize-” I mean, it’s legal, of course, but, “Before we say, here’s your regulations and here’s how we want it done. We need to make sure this never happens. This doesn’t happen. So we’re scrapping everything and starting over.”. Does that scare you?

Jordan Lams:
Yeah. A little bit. And it opens the can of worms of like, “Well, what else can they make from this?”.

Matt Baum:
Right [crosstalk 00:20:17] exactly. Next thing you know, they’re going to be making PCP out of it and feeding it to Antifa or whatever, right?

Jordan Lams:
And too, it’s… it’s interesting because at the end of the day… they’re trying so hard to control something that… is really vastly uncontrollable.

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Jordan Lams:
And up until this point, I think the hemp industry did a pretty good job of drawing a very clear box around it, of what it was and what it wasn’t. And this is a really harsh 180.

Matt Baum:
That’s what it seems like [crosstalk 00:20:55].

Jordan Lams:
Yeah, I can’t imagine it’s not going to come with some trials and tribulations. And moreover, I think the consumers are confused. I think people are looking at it like, “Oh, it’s a derivative CBD, and it’s legal, so it’s not going to get me high in the same way.”, and then you have people that dose too much, and it can, it can scare them off altogether, which is one of the biggest challenges with THC is when people dose too much and then they never want to go back to it.

Matt Baum:
Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Lams:
But the reality is they could get a lot of good from it if they just find that balance-

Matt Baum:
Right. Learn how to use it. I will say, as someone who is very aware of the laws and knows a lot about this from just doing this show, when I opened a box of Delta-8-THC that was sent to me, I didn’t know what I was getting, but they said, “We’re going to send you a bunch of CBD stuff that we have.”, and that was one of them. And I took it out, and I said out loud, “Is it legal to send this through the mail?”. I didn’t know. And I’m still not real sure. And I guess we’re just going to have to wait and see where this goes. Speaking from your company’s standpoint, at what point would a company like Moxy feel safe and feel cool going into this? What are you looking for to happen first?

Jordan Lams:
I think, for us to be able to receive Delta-8 in from a hemp producer, we’d need, at the very least, a strong level legal opinion. But some clarity from the federal government on how the farm bill applies to this would be helpful because there’s the whole… That’s just the first part, getting it in. Then secondarily, we would need clearance from our state or local regulators to be able to process it. Because, as I mentioned, even with hemp, technically in California, you can’t process it. In Nevada, however, we can. You just have to have a separate hemp handler’s certificate. So-

Matt Baum:
Good lord.

Jordan Lams:
… it’s a little… It would be a mixed bag, a little different all over, depending on what operation of ours we were talking about. But clarity in any regard would be helpful. I think.

Matt Baum:
Yeah, just a little bit. I mean, even if it’s someone getting arrested, so we go, “Oh, okay. There it’s… Okay. So now we have to be careful. Got it.”.

New cannabinoids and the war on drugs

Jordan Lams:
And where they need the most guidance is at the law enforcement level, because I mean, imagine the poor, beat cop that has no idea of the difference in the visual-

Matt Baum:
Absolutely.

Jordan Lams:
… it’s oil. It looks just like the CBD, looks just like the THC.

Matt Baum:
Right, I [crosstalk 00:23:07] mean, right now [crosstalk 00:23:09] if you’re like, “Oh look, no, these joints that I have on me, these are CBD joints. That’s all they are. They’re for my back pain or whatever. And they’re completely legal.”. It’s hard enough for a cop to look at that and go, “Okay, I’m going to take your word for it.”. Now, when you pull out a package that says THC on it and go, “No, no, no. This is cool. It’s not that THC.”. Just… It’s-

Jordan Lams:
Where it gets interesting too is, and I’m not sure how it works, but the field tests that they have, which are notorious for false positives for one, but also will this trigger a regular THC field test? And does that mean that you’ll have someone that might have issues of driving under the influence charges based on the way that one of these tests pops up?

Matt Baum:
Absolutely.

Jordan Lams:
And so-

Matt Baum:
Or if your drug tested at work.

Jordan Lams:
… it’s got to get addressed quickly.

Matt Baum:
If you’re drug tested at work? Is this going to come up as THC on your drug test? Is it going to come up as-

Jordan Lams:
I’ve heard that it doesn’t.

Matt Baum:
Really?

Jordan Lams:
I can’t validate that, but that’s what I’ve been told is that, in fact, it does not trigger in a regular drug test, through urine analysis, but-

Matt Baum:
Interesting.

Jordan Lams:
… I’m not sure. It’s early days.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. We’ll have to look into it. I just feel like we’ve got a real sticky wicket here with this one. And I don’t mean to sound prude, and I don’t mean to sound pessimistic, but it just seems like we really, and when I say we, I mean, the larger cannabis space really needs to be careful. Just with the amount of work that they have done saying, “We’re hemp, we’re not marijuana, we’re hemp, we’re not marijuana.” And now, “Oh, yeah. But we can also do something kind of like marijuana.” So, keep-

Jordan Lams:
Yeah, no [crosstalk 00:24:40] I agree. And I don’t want to make the caution of the unclear deter people from even pushing the issue on an advocacy side, because where things get really interesting as we do evolve our understanding of the cannabinoids that exist at large is that various ratios of them together, that affect the entourage affect in different-

Matt Baum:
Oh, absolutely.

Jordan Lams:
… capacities. It’s still such a huge amount of discovery that we have left to do. And getting access to large amounts of pure molecules like this is critical in that development and understanding of how things work and then ultimately in the formulation of combinatorial treatments. So, on one hand, we need to figure out what it is and how we’re going to deal with it now from a legal and marketing, and other perspectives. But on the flip, now we’ve got access to something that we didn’t before at scale and inexpensively, and that-

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Jordan Lams:
… opens up a whole slew of opportunity.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. I mean, it’s definitely cool, and we’ll see where it goes. And I think you… It sounds like you guys are being very level-headed about this, and you’re playing it safe for now because you have to. So, we want to advocate, and we want to push, but at the same time, we got to play this stupid governmental game, unfortunately. And even that will be better for everybody.

Jordan Lams:
Yeah. And it’s a process, right? I think our industry because we come from being the misfits by nature, those willing to stand up in the face of adversity for what’s right. Or what we believe is okay for ourselves as individuals and our capacity as adults. But I got to say too, having… I’m 31. I’ve been in the business for about 13 years, which is a lifetime in this industry, and going into it; I was probably the pessimistic young adult that didn’t really believe in the system and fighting the good fight. And 13 years later, I can say I’ve been able to affect some real change by just getting out there and having conversations like this with the stakeholders who have pen to paper.

Matt Baum:
Absolutely.

Jordan Lams:
And just don’t be jaded at the end of the day. If there’s something there and it can be done safely, you just have to stick to your guns. You have to stand up in the face of adversity and advocate for what’s right. And these natural therapies that are safe, despite even some level of intoxication, when using a small subset of them can have absolutely life-changing impacts for people. So we’ve got a little bit of a road ahead to deal with this one specifically because I think it came fairly unexpectedly.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. It seems like this [crosstalk 00:27:11] year.

Jordan Lams:
But I’m so-

Matt Baum:
It just popped up.

Jordan Lams:
… optimistic.

Matt Baum:
Right. Last… I feel like this just popped up [crosstalk 00:27:14] in the last six months.

Jordan Lams:
Nothing forces ingenuity like necessity. Right?

Matt Baum:
I suppose.

Jordan Lams:
And I think with COVID and the crazy turbulence that our industry and the world has gone through this year, it’s caused some very unique thinking to surface. And this is one of those really intriguing new opportunities.

Matt tries Delta 8 THC on the podcast

Matt Baum:
Yeah… I want to send a huge thanks to Jordan for coming on and doing such a wonderful job explaining all about what is Delta-8-THC. We’ll have links to Moxie in the show notes. If you want to check that out and more information about Jordan too. But now, let’s get into it…

It’s been a little while since I’ve taken the Delta-8-THC, and I’m still here. I have to say; I don’t feel impaired. I have some experience. I mean, with marijuana, I’m not going to lie. This is a green friendly household I live in… And this is a different kind of high. I definitely feel high. It’s there, but it is more of a body high kind of what Jordan explained. I feel very relaxed, very at ease, not so much clouded in my head. I might not take something like this and drive just to be safe, but I also don’t feel drunk or lightheaded or dizzy. Any of the things that someone who doesn’t experiment with THC very often can have happen when they try an edible, for example. The Delta-8-THC that I took was a tincture. I’m not going to name the company, but it was a flavored tincture. And you take it much like you would take CBD.

I put it under my tongue for about a minute. Let it sit. The suggested dosage on the bottle was one milliliter, which, according to the label, is 11 milligrams of nano Delta-8-THC. And it also has three milligrams of nano Delta-9-THC, both of which we spoke about in our conversation.
Now, maybe when I go back, and I listen to this, I’m going to think, “Oh, wow. I sounded really funny.”, but I feel like I’m talking, okay. I feel like I’m still parsing out this information as best as I normally do. I’m not going to say I’m an excellent podcaster, but I do the job.

Now normally, whenever you’re trying new products, we always say to start low and go slow. Which, of course, I did not because I wanted to get a real feel for what happens when you take the suggested dose of… And I got to say; this isn’t bad at all.

I feel very relaxed. I have these sort of waves that are running through my body of relaxation that sort of start, what feels like just below my neck maybe. And they carry down through your chest and through your hands. And it’s really just nice and a chill way to end the day, I guess.

It seems like this hit a little slower than THC, that you would smoke or vape. And it really gently just sort of rolls into it. Whereas sometimes if you’re smoking or vaping, boom, you’re just high. The same thing can happen with an edible that you take for the first time. You feel fine. You feel fine. You feel fine. Wham, you’re way too high.

That doesn’t seem to be the case here. Now, again, I’m an experienced THC user. So that’s why I went ahead with the one-milliliter dose. But if you’re going to try this, I would definitely start maybe at half a dose just to see how you react to it. My first experience reactions here, I got to say this isn’t bad at all. And I kind of enjoy it.

So far, I’m giving my first experience with Delta-8-THC a thumbs up. Is it good for the market? Is it going to give CBD a bad name? Well, that all remains to be seen, I guess.

Final thoughts from Matt And Does He Recommends Delta 8?

Matt Baum:
That brings us to the end of this episode of Matt Does New Drugs On The Internet. I hope you enjoyed it. And if my parents are listening, I’m not going to apologize. You know who I am.
Next week on the show, we are going to be talking about pharmaceutical CBD, but specifically a co-crystal that has been used to make CBD more bioavailable, meaning easier for your body to absorb. We’ll tell you all about it next week. And if it is what the people that I talk to says it is, then this co-crystal could blow the whole CBD market wide open.

If you need more Ministry Of Hemp news in your life before that, head over to our site ministryofhemp.com, where we’ve got a fantastic article, all about CBN. It’s another new cannabinoid, that’s very hot. That is being marketed as helping people sleep.

We’ve got a whole article called CBN. What is cannabinol, and why is it getting so much attention? And you should also check out a show that I did a couple episodes ago with Ethan Carr, from Slumber CBN, all about how it can help you sleep. Really cool stuff. And again, those will both be in the show notes. Speaking of show notes here at the Ministry of Hemp, we believe that an accessible world is better for everyone. So we have a full written transcript of this show in the notes as well.

Be sure to follow us on Twitter and Facebook and check out our Instagram because we’ve got another giveaway coming up real soon here. And I think they’re going to let me announce the winner on the show, which is cool, makes me feel special, right? And if you really want to help us out, please rate this show wherever you’re getting your podcasts from, give us a star or even a little written review, because it helps move us up in the search algorithm and get this show in front of people that are looking for hemp news and information about things like CBD, CBN, and Delta-8-THC, even.

But if you really want to make a difference, head over to Patreon/ministryofhemp and become a Ministry of Hemp insider. It gets you access to podcast extras, to early news articles, to articles and information that we don’t even put on the site. But most importantly, it makes you a hemp crusader helping us to spread the good word of hemp and how it can change the world.

All right, that’s it. For now, remember to take care of yourself, take care of others, and make good decisions, will you? This is a slightly stoned Matt Baum with the Ministry of Hemp signing off.

The post We Explore Delta 8 THC: Weed’s Little Brother, Does It Get You High? [Podcast] appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

The 2020 election was a referendum on the legalization of cannabis, as much as it was a vote about who would represent us or lead the country. We believe that federally legalizing cannabis will help the hemp industry, too.

In the 2020 election, voters in 4 states legalized the possession of psychoactive cannabis (a.k.a “marijuana”) by adults. Two more states approved medical cannabis. In total, 36 states now support some form of possession of psychoactive cannabis, whether for medicinal or recreational purposes. And President-elect Joe Biden might be more supportive of legalization and reform of the war on drugs than any president in our lifetimes.

Legalizing cannabis is an issue many politicians dismissed or avoided discussing for years, even as more of the populace began to openly support the idea. Polls about cannabis legalization consistently show that the majority of Americans support both recreational and medicinal cannabis. And those numbers seem to increase with every year and every poll.

We believe that legalizing cannabis is good for the country, and good for industrial hemp too. Even though the U.S. legalized hemp in 2018, barriers remain that make it hard for our favorite plant to thrive here. Some of those would disappear if all forms of cannabis became legal.

Update December 2020: U.S. House of Reps passes ‘MORE Act’ Calling For Cannabis Decriminalization

About one month after the election, the U.S. House of Representatives approved the historic Marijuana Opportunity, Reinvestment and Expungement (MORE) Act. This bill would deschedule cannabis, making possession no longer a crime, and expunge past cannabis convictions as well.

The House voted to approve the MORE Act on December 4, 2020 despite heavy criticism from members of the Republican party. The vote was split largely along party lines. Republicans issued statements and took to Twitter to lambast their political opponents for even attempting to pass cannabis legalization legislation. As a result, passage in the GOP dominated Senate looks impossible.

“It’s important for farmers … it’s important to get people out of prison and for our own well being.”

As we discussed below and in a December 2, 2020 Ministry of Hemp podcast episode on cannabis legalization, this illustrates the stark divide between popular opinion and political will on psychoactive cannabis (a.k.a. “marijuana”). While Republican leaders like Sen. Mitch McConnell are enthusiastic in their support of another form of the same plant, too much stigma remains for them to openly embrace support of THC-rich cannabis. That’s even though psychoactive cannabis is generating billions for state economies during an intense economic downturn.

Not only would legalizing cannabis help clear up some remaining issues in the hemp industry, “it’s important for our farmers, it’s important for business revenues. … it is important to free up frivolous lawsuits and get people out of prison that should not be there and it’s important for our own wellbeing,” as our podcast host Matt Baum pointed out during our recent discussion.

With a run-off election imminent in Georgia and more political change ahead, support for cannabis could continue to grow. We think it’s time for Republicans to contact their lawmakers and tell them they support cannabis legalization too.

The connection between hemp and ‘marijuana’

Two years ago, Pres. Donald Trump signed the 2018 Farm Bill, a massive omnibus agricultural funding bill which included an amendment that legalized hemp.

Hemp advocates celebrated this long-awaited move but, despite bi-partisan support of industrial hemp, the new industry is off to a difficult start. Everyone from banks to social media companies continue to stigmatize hemp, associating it with cannabis which they still deem illegal. That makes it hard to grow the industry, or invest in new uses for the plant.

To fully legalize hemp, we need to support access to the plant in all its forms.

The fact that every state has slightly different laws for treating both hemp and cannabis creates an ongoing mess of legal confusion and prosecutions. Police don’t have reliable ways to tell the difference between hemp and cannabis. Some states are responding by banning smokable forms of hemp, despite their exploding popularity and the fact that the Farm Bill legalized all forms of hemp.

Industrial hemp is a different form of the cannabis plant that doesn’t get people high. Legally speaking, the only difference is that hemp needs to remain below 0.3% THC. Crops that go over this amount typically must be destroyed, causing a tremendous amount of waste at every harvest. 

Psychoactive cannabis is consumed for pleasure, its medicinal benefits, or both. Hemp has countless uses, from medicine to clothing to food and beyond. With their distinct uses, and distinct ways of being grown, the hemp and cannabis industries will probably always be separate.

But if we want to clear up the remaining legal hurdles around hemp, legalizing all forms of the plant seems like an obvious next step. Election 2020 brought us much closer to that goal.

The future of hemp after election 2020

Support for the total legalization of cannabis is creeping up in Congress. The MORE Act, which would legalize cannabis nationwide, could see a House vote as soon as next week. 

While it’s unclear if Congress is quite ready to take this step, the country as a whole seems ready. More than half of states allow cannabis possession in some form. We’re well past the stage where the federal government could effectively stop legalization. There’s just too much momentum. 

After the 2020 election, it seems likely that the U.S. may legalize cannabis, and fix hemp regulations too. Timing makes a big difference, however. It took hemp about a decade to really take off in Canada after they legalized the plant. Cannabis could end up legalized with so many strings attached that the black market continues to thrive. This dysfunctional, divisive political moment could delay progress for years.

To ensure a bright future for our favorite plant, cannabis and hemp need to become priorities for our legislators. If you love hemp, you need to put pressure on lawmakers to also legalize cannabis and to do so in a way that’s just and equitable.

If we come together in support of our favorite plant, we can ensure it thrives in every form.

The post Hemp After Election 2020: Legalizing Cannabis Will Make Hemp Thrive (UPDATED) appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

In episode 64 of the Ministry of Hemp podcast, our host Matt is joined by the whole Ministry of Hemp crew: Editor in Chief Kit O’Connell, Brand Manager Drew De Los Santos, and Videographer Desiree Kane to discuss cannabis on the election 2020 ballot. While the American public may be split on somethings, cannabis legislation is not one of them.

For more on the subject, Kit’s article on hemp after election 2020, too.

You’ve got hemp questions? We’ve got hemp answers!

Send us your hemp questions and you might hear them answered on one of our Hemp Q&A episodes. Send your written questions to us on Twitter, Facebook, matt@ministryofhemp.com, or call us and leave a message at 402-819-6417. Keep in mind, this phone number is for hemp questions only and any other inquiries for the Ministry of Hemp should be sent to info@ministryofhemp.com

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Cannabis legalization & hemp after the election: Complete episode transcript

Below you’ll find the complete transcript of episode 64 of the Ministry of Hemp podcast, “Cannabis legalization & hemp after election 2020”:

Matt Baum:
I’m Matt Baum and this is the Ministry of Hemp podcast brought to you by ministryofhemp.com America’s leading advocate for hemp and Hemp education.

Matt Baum:
Hope everybody had a good Thanksgiving holiday and I know ours was a little strange in the Baum house because of COVID and whatnot. We didn’t really get to hang out with the family, but we still made the best of it and it went really well, but it felt like a nice relaxing end to a pretty stressful month and the main stress of this month yes, definitely COVID but there was also an election. So today we’re going to talk about the election, but don’t worry. We’re not going to get into the Trump stuff and Biden stuff. Not at all. Today, we are going to talk about cannabis on the ballot.

Matt Baum:
I wanted to give everybody a few weeks to just decompress after how gnarly the whole election process really was before we can talk about this kind of stuff, but it seemed like a really good time to get together with the other Ministry of Hemp guys and just talk through what went down as far as cannabis measures that were on ballots all over the United States. So here is our little Ministry of Hemp round table discussion about cannabis and the 2020 election.

Meet the Ministry of Hemp team

Matt Baum:
I am joined here today by the entire Ministry of Hemp crew, which is awesome because we’ve never done this. We’ve had Drew, Kit and I have done some shows, we’ve had Drew in some shows, but Desiree is here too. Desiree, why don’t we start with you say hi to the kids and tell them what you do for Ministry of Hemp.

Desiree Kane:
My name is Desiree Kane. I’m a Miwok two-spirit that recently moved to the Pacific Northwest in occupied Salish territory. What I deal with Ministry of Hemp is right now, I’m doing the holiday guide with Drew and Kit, where I get to take beautiful pictures of a whole bunch of products that you can come to Ministry of Hemp and see Kit’s input and review and learn some things about CBD comes in so many different forms and you can expect to see my pictures in there. Sometimes I also do educational videos. So you’ll see me making spritzers and also perhaps explaining to you what is CBG or what is CBN.

Matt Baum:
You have the glamorous job. We’re all here rolling around in the muck and editing and you’re making spritzers and making videos.

Desiree Kane:
It’s not awful.

Matt Baum:
Fair enough. That was the most punk rock intro we’re going to hear tonight by the way and I really liked it. Drew introduce yourself again. We know you but you know, just for the kids who are the new listeners.

Drew De Los Santos:
Yeah. My name is Drew and I am the brand manager at Ministry of Hemp, just making sure everything’s flowing and that we keep working with great brands

Matt Baum:
And then kit our editor in chief say, hi.

Kit O’Connell:
Hi everybody this is Kit O’Connell great to be here again.

Matt Baum:
Do you know kit? He’s been with me on a bunch of our Q and A shows. We’re not doing a Q and A show today, but what we are going to do, I don’t know if you pay attention to the news or not. It was a little election recently and it got some coverage and people freaked out about stuff and I know my heart almost stopped a few times and if it wasn’t for CBD, I probably wouldn’t still be here. But luckily I have lots of samples and they got me through that week. We just wanted to let it re-decompress a little bit, maybe except what happened with the election and then we can move forward from there. But we’re not here to talk about that.

Matt Baum:
We’re here to talk about marijuana and Hemp in the 2020 election. Because while we can say that it looks like America is very split. If you look at the election results and how many votes went to Republicans and many went to Democrats. One thing they don’t seem to be split on at all is marijuana and Hemp, which is kind of shocking. It was on a ton of ballots all over the United States and it won pretty big not just that but psychedelics as well in the form of mushrooms seem to win really huge Desiree you just moved to Portland. Tell us what went down in Oregon, which blew my mind by the way.

Cannabis & other drug laws change after election

Desiree Kane:
So Oregon, basically it is now legal or will be by 2023 to have therapeutically administered psilocybin therapy, which psilocybin is also known as magic mushrooms. They also decriminalized low levels of all drugs.

Matt Baum:
So what does that mean? Exactly? Because there are some pundits that freaked out, of course, and they’re like, Oh great, now kids can walk around with heroin. Like what does that exactly mean small amounts of drugs? Or is there a number on anything or-

Desiree Kane:
That’s something that I would have to look into it following that vote. I do know that basically they’re going to approach it as a public health thing and if you have certain types of controlled substances, you’ll be into a therapy program instead of sentenced to the prison industrial complex which creates a whole other set issues that are problematic.

Matt Baum:
It’s also very similar to a lot of programs that are going on in Europe right now, where rather than demonizing addiction, you work with addicts and [crosstalk 00:06:07].

Desiree Kane:
It’s the same thing Portugal has done.

Matt Baum:
Yeah, and it’s super successful and it scares a lot of people here in the United States, but guess what? It works folks, and it’s here because you have voted for it. So what else did we have on the ballot? Anybody let’s try in, let’s talk about this.

Kit O’Connell:
Well, I want it to jump off of what Desiree with the same, because what’s just happened in Oregon. You know we don’t know what’s going to happen at the federal level. Obviously a lot is still to be seen about what’s going to come. But if you look at the platform for president elect Biden, his platform that he ran under actually was quite progressive on the war on drugs and one of the things that he talks about in there is encouraging the people be diverted away from the prisons for possession. So we could see that there actually has been some Republican support for reducing the war on drugs too.

Kit O’Connell:
So they’re seeing as something that has some bipartisan support and there’s even one of the things that we’re seeing that’s interesting is that there’s this growing bipartisan support from the people of the United States, across the political board for cannabis legalization, a majority of people, it’s almost 70%. I think in one of the studies I saw across the political spectrum now support cannabis legalization and that’s really extraordinary. So that includes Democrats, Republicans, young people, old people, people from all backgrounds, races, if you lump them all together and take an average, the vast majority of people support this idea.

Matt Baum:
So real quick, just to spell it out, marijuana specifically cannabis was made legal for medicinal reasons in Mississippi and South Dakota. These are two distinctly red States like South Dakota has legalized medical marijuana and they have a governor that didn’t want people driving Hemp through the state. So the people have definitely spoken there pretty shocking and then voters legalize the possession of marijuana by adults in Arizona, Montana, New Jersey and South Dakota. So they got medical marijuana and recreational marijuana in South Dakota, which I thought for a long time, I’ve been saying for a long time, Nebraska will be the very, very last state to legalize marijuana and it will be after Puerto Rico is a state. So watch for that and now South Dakota has just proved me, right? Because South Dakota they’re very hostile to this stuff, but the voter [crosstalk 00:08:42]-

Kit O’Connell:
Montana?

Matt Baum:
-Yeah, I mean it blows my… Actually Montana we’ll see, from what I understand, that’s going to be on the ballot there soon too. So we’ll see. It’s the people that are coming out and voting for this. We listened to what a lot of officials say and look at laws. They’re trying to put on things to hold cannabis back, hold Hemp back. But then whenever it goes to the ballot, guess what? It gets voted in. The only reason it wasn’t on the ballot in Nebraska it’s because our governor said, there’s a problem with the paperwork. Try again next time and then ran around in circles so they couldn’t catch him because we were basically saying, what is the problem with the paperwork? Tell us they wouldn’t answer until it was too late and so it didn’t make the ballot and just like you said, kit, when polled in Nebraska, 74%, 74% of the population said, yeah I’m fine with it. It does not bother me at all.

Election 2020 shows cannabis popular in ‘red’ states too

Desiree Kane:
There also not a governor that can avoid in States like the Dakotas or any of the bread basket States, the big agriculture industry that comes with it. So the farmer, I think we can expect the farmers to be a little more mobilized around it and that’s why you have governor Noem in North Dakota, doesn’t want it driven through or whatever. But there are Hemp farmers who are being locked out of a crop and at the end of the day, that’s the constituency base that rules those States, right? So in the best interest of the farmers is to get on board and that will inevitably shift the politics of the governorship.

Matt Baum:
Oh definitely, and if you look at that list of States, almost all of them barring New Jersey really are well in Arizona maybe are agricultural States. So this States know where their bread is buttered. Nebraska is one where we have gently said, well we want to look into what it’s like growing Hemp and they’ve been very wishy-washy about it because the farmers want it. But like you said, you have governors who have to run on their constituency and they are terrified that their constituency will look at them and say, “Oh you’re a hippie and you like smoking weed now, got it.” We’re going to vote for this crazy person. That’s going to tell us it’s a sin or whatever. So-

Desiree Kane:
The supreme court recently resolved that issue where the electoral college didn’t have to vote the will of their constituency base. So moving forward, your vote is going to matter in a way that it hasn’t been before really and so it will become increasingly important to vote when you have these opportunities, because it can change American politics if we wanted to, we just have to actually organize around that.

Matt Baum:
Definitely. I also think it’s hilarious that a lot of these States you have very hard line, not just anti-cannabis, but just anti-drugs all across the board. Candidates who now have to look at the people that voted for this and go, “Oh, okay well, I guess that changes things a little bit and maybe I have to loosen up on some ideas of my own.” So-

Drew De Los Santos:
I mean, I think it’s like, it’s become undeniable of the various benefits of legalizing cannabis and legalizing Hemp and making sure that they get those regulations out quickly I think because in Texas, like right when all of the other States legalized cannabis and marijuana, one of the state senators, or state representatives in San Antonio, he put down a bill to legalize it here in Texas stating that, because of Corona virus, there’s a $4.6 billion budget hole that we’re going to have to deal with next year and the years to come. So it’s like, here’s an easy solution that doesn’t involve raising people’s taxes, you know add another revenue stream and it’s like, there’s only so many times that you can ignore that before it’s just like glaringly obvious.

Matt Baum:
It’s funny because we voted for gambling here, but we couldn’t vote for cannabis and I know don’t get me wrong, cannabis has ruined far more lives than gambling has in this country. We all know that to be true. So it’s absolutely ridiculous.

Drew De Los Santos:
Speaking of the records, one thing that was cool that happened in Arizona was as soon as it was voted in one of the district attorney in Arizona’s largest County started dropping the charges for people like immediately. So they immediately started dropping marijuana charges for folks there, [crosstalk 00:13:27]. which I thought was great.

Matt Baum:
That’s even more important. Definitely like, that’s the even larger side of this is when you start legalizing it for adult usage, you have to look at all these ridiculous cases and overcrowded prisons and overcrowded courtrooms and just get rid of this garbage, get rid of it. So we can focus on real issues, real crime, real problems, not the guy that had an ounce in his pocket when he got pulled over for doing five miles over the speed limit or something. So I’m really interested to see where that goes.

Kit O’Connell:
It has to be said too, they’ve done studies now consistently that showing that there’s a racial disparity when it comes to arrests around drugs and one of the problems that we’re seeing is that that racial disparity does not disappear even under most forms of legalization, “legalization.”

Kit O’Connell:
There’s always still ways that you can break the law in a legal state. You could sell weed without a permit or you can have too much of it or all kinds of things can happen and they’re showing that it’s still a disparity that black people and people of color are arrested more even though when they do studies in drug use, it’s the same that white people and people of color use drugs at the same where even white people use them more depending on the drug. So we need to make sure that we’re expunging cases and we’re making sure that there’s an accessible and like a level playing field under whatever we call legalization.

Matt Baum:
Definitely. So what happened in Texas? Tell me Texas people, Drew and Kit are both Texans. What happened? I thought this was supposed to be on the bill. I thought it was supposed to pass. I thought you guys were going to flip blue. You both promised me it was going to happen.

Kit O’Connell:
[inaudible 00:15:15] We always say that We’re going to flip blue.

Drew De Los Santos:
Maybe if it had been on the ballot, we would know but I think it always gets caught up like marijuana legalization bills always get caught up like in the Senate committees or they never leave the committees and I think our governor hasn’t been very willing to sign it, even if it does go through, but maybe Kit you can speak more to that.

Kit O’Connell:
Well, that’s one of the things that we’re seeing is it, we talked about how the people tend to support legalization, but the politicians don’t always. That’s definitely the case here in Texas and Hemp it’s very distinct on the whole. They’ve passed a very pretty broad, you know they nationally legalized Hemp in 2018, but here in Texas, the policy is pretty broad. They did try to ban smoke able Hemp, but even that got overturned by our court and least temporarily people can smoke hemp here again. Yeah so the populace wants it, the politicians are resistant, but Hemp is supported. It’s interesting that we talk about this a lot. There are two forms of the same plant they’re growing in very different ways, but they are at the base the same plant and it’s weird that politicians have accepted that it’s safe. As long as it doesn’t have THC in it. It’s, it’s very arbitrary amount of THC 0.03% is extremely low, so low that it’s even hard for people who are just making CBD products sometimes to keep it below that throughout the entire process.

Cannabis after election 2020

Kit O’Connell:
So we’ve created this arbitrary distinction, and now we’re talking about how we’re going to enforce it, or at least the politicians really want to enforce it. I hope to see that that is breaking slowly there’s talk that we may see a congressional vote on some form of marijuana legalization in 2021. I don’t know if we’ll see enough to get it through both parts of Congress, but we probably will see a vote on it. Biden does seem like he supports medical marijuana and he supports the States, making their decisions on recreational. That’s based on his platform. Obviously you’ve seen presidents change once they actually get into office, but based on his platform, he wants to see less jail time for people for possession in general, he wants to see a medical marijuana nationally passed and he wants the States to make up their mind recreationally. That’s a pretty good if we could get there, that’s pretty good.

Matt Baum:
I mean, we’re almost there 36 States. We have 36 States that have either enacted or voted to enact medical marijuana and then we have 15 States where adult usage is totally fine. So we’re way past halfway there. I can’t do that math but that seems like it’s close to 50, you know?

Kit O’Connell:
We’re even at the point where… One of the things I thought was interesting that started recently was there was some proposal. I saw this in Hemp Industry Daily. So I’ll give them a shout out, that we’re starting to see so many States legalize that theoretically those States could start working together and sort of forming blocks. Like right now we have the Oregon cannabis industry and the Washington cannabis industry and each state is in a silo. But there’s enough neighboring States that have all legalized. They could start actually working together and your dispensary in Portland could be selling the best stuff from Washington state. I’m sure there’s pros and cons of that

Matt Baum:
You got a conference just like college football. [crosstalk 00:18:53] You’ve got conferences, all of a sudden.

Kit O’Connell:
I think there’s a lot of interesting potential. The more that’s starts happening, the less it starts to live viable for the country to keep it illegal at all.

Why cannabis matters to hemp

Matt Baum:
Now I know people that listen to the show and I’ve had a couple of comments come at me whenever I do a podcast where we start talking about marijuana or THC related stuff and they say, I thought this supposed to be a Hemp show. Why are we talking about marijuana? So why are we all sitting here talking about marijuana when we are the Ministry of Hemp? Why is that?

Drew De Los Santos:
Well, I think that Hemp has helped to show an economic opportunity for the plant and it’s just like, there’s so much business that’s it just comes along with opportunity for people and not controlling a plant. Like these things are connected, not controlling business, not controlling what individuals do, when it doesn’t harm anybody else and it hasn’t been proven to harm anybody. Then the other thing about it is that it’s related because people still get arrested for Hemp. Like you were mentioning people can’t drive through South Dakota and people get arrested here in Texas for Hemp, even though it’s legal. So if marijuana was legal, that problem would go away and it would be time that wasn’t wasted money that wasn’t wasted going through this arbitrary legal process.

Matt Baum:
I just totally tricked Drew into saying exactly what I wanted to hear. That was perfect.

Drew De Los Santos:
Hey, that’s my opinion.

Matt Baum:
No, but I don’t disagree at all. I think we’re at a point now in the United States, where as bizarre as this sounds, I would argue that marijuana is probably less regulated, not regulated, but is probably easier to gain legally and work with legally than Hemp is in a lot of States. And that is preposterously stupid. Just inane. If we’re afraid of THC fine, let’s be afraid of THC, but the United States has shown we’re not. We’re not scared of it. When you put on the ballot, we’re going to vote for it. So it’s time to stop pretending like one, there is some issue with 0.03 THC in Hemp that makes it perfectly safe and okay, we can raise that number. We could raise it to 10% and you still wouldn’t even be coming anywhere near the good stuff, if you will. You know what I mean?

Matt Baum:
And it’s so limited right now. I just did a wonderful interview with a woman. That’s going to… I don’t know if it’s going to be next week or the week after that was talking about Hemp plastic and one of the reasons that’s holding things back like Hemp fibers and Hemp plastics is because big business doesn’t know what to do yet. They’re looking at marijuana being legalized and going, well their safe money there and we know we can do that. We can take credit card payments for it now in a lot of States where this has been approved and whatnot. Banking is becoming easier for marijuana than Hemp and that is ridiculous. That makes no sense to me. Does anyone have any thoughts on why we’re still having to talk about this at this point 36 States voted for medical marijuana, 15 it’s totally legal, but Hemp is still having trouble and it was legalized by the farm bill. Why are we still talking about this?

Kit O’Connell:
One problem is just like, we don’t want to get into the details on this show, but there has to so much just like divisiveness and politics, even though sometimes there’s been bills proposed to fix some of the issues with Hemp that’s left behind in the Hemp industry. There just hasn’t been the time or the energy or they’re being distracted by other things. It’s hard to get it on the agenda. Hard to get a lot of things on the agenda and Hemp is included in that list right now unfortunately.

Kit O’Connell:
Even though some people do want to fix it, even Mitch McConnell has shown that he has said he wants to fix some of the holes that were left behind by the 2018 farm bill legalization of Hemp, but it was just too much [inaudible 00:23:00] and there’s too much going on as we all very well know to let that in [inaudible 00:23:05] I think one problem too is just this like we do have this patchwork of laws. They still don’t have a FDA regulation. We still don’t have a USDA regulations that everybody can agree on and all of that’s holding the industry back too, and it’s even still this sort of like some States do it this way. Some States do it that way and I’m sure, you know the banking industry wants to come in and do a one way across the country and that’s still not possible for Hemp.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. Banking and insurance, both especially crop insurance. That’s one of the things with a lot of the farmers that I’ve talked to. Crop insurance is such a nightmare because it’s different from state to state to state. Now that is true also with corn and soybeans, but corn and soybeans are not limited other way in other States are [fightyard 00:23:53] traded as commodities and Hemp is not. So it’s little things like that. It’s easy for us to say “we did it, we voted, we won, we’re legalizing marijuana and we’re fighting for Hemp.” But that fight is not over. It’s nowhere near over and we need to keep telling the people in power.

Matt Baum:
We want this and we don’t just want this because one, we want to get high. That’s it man. Or we’re hippies and we like wearing Hemp clothes. No, we want it because it’s important for our farmers. It’s important for business revenues. Like Drew said, it is important to free up frivolous lawsuits and get people out of prison that should not be there and it’s important for our own wellbeing. There’s so many pluses to this and we can’t stop fighting yet. I think that’s the most important thing to remember. Let’s not just say, “we did it, we got rid of Trump, all our problems are gone. All of them.” No, they’re not.

The history & future of cannabis in the U.S.

Desiree Kane:
Well, I think that there’s honestly a debt to be paid on a national level when it comes to cannabis. Because look at the history, cannabis was first called Indian Hemp and it came illegal when there were floods of Mexican, quote unquote Mexican immigrants like migrating in. So it’s part of a vast criminalization mechanism that is built into the system. So when you ask and I liked Drew’s answer about why it’s important with marijuana, with THC, with Hemp, with all of these things, there’s so much that has gone into why that plant is illegal and it is very racially motivated against black and Brown people. So we have to actively combat that as we as a nation are going through this moment of racial equity. Some moments are happening and that the fight around cannabis is a frontline in that way.

Matt Baum:
One of the really cool things that I’ve seen in Nebraska, just like every other state, we have definitely jerked our native American people around and now they’ve said, “well, we’re going to start growing marijuana and Hemp because it’s our land and you guys don’t want to patrol it, you don’t want to take care of it, you say it’s not part of the United States, so there you go.” And they are, and they’re doing a fantastic job and our governor hates it, and I love that he hates it. You jerks are the reason that they are living where they’re living. Okay. So now we can’t get mad and decide, wait a minute. We don’t like what you’re doing on the land that we said as yours. That isn’t really good for farming other stuff, but that which we’ll do very well there, by the way, and make you a ton of money. Now we’re upset.

Desiree Kane:
I really like what NuWu is doing in Las Vegas. It’s where I grew up. Oh my goodness. It’s beautiful to see native people with economic empowerment that is fueled by a plant that is within the natural order.

Matt Baum:
Right. Not fueled by casinos, which is just-

Desiree Kane:
[inaudible 00:27:24] Around casinos and all of that. But with cannabis, you know it’s another way that you can treat many things. As we know, there are multiple benefits for consuming cannabis of all varieties.

Matt Baum:
Absolutely.

Kit O’Connell:
Desiree can you introduce what NuWu is real quick? There’s a lot of people listening. Won’t know what that is.

Desiree Kane:
Yeah. NuWu I call it the pot grocery store, but it’s a beautiful marijuana dispensary in Las Vegas that is run by the Paiute people native to Las Vegas, who, you know Las Vegas is built upon their ancestral bones. Every time you go swimming there, guess who’s underneath your pool.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. But we like to say, “nah, it’s just a desert. They came out to this desert in the middle of nowhere and we built a strip and now it’s beautiful and gorgeous and there’s famous people in restaurant.” And like, yeah there was something there before you jackasses and it wasn’t just sand. So-

Desiree Kane:
Oh, there’s also like a beautiful Springs there that that tribe has really fought to preserve also.

Matt Baum:
This is awesome and this has been a great discussion and I think again, we go into speaking about marijuana THC, because it is the same plant at the end of the day. It’s the same plant and any legislation that is good for marijuana is even better for Hemp because it erodes that case. That’s out there and saying, “well, we don’t know and it might be a little scary and maybe we shouldn’t feed it to animals and if kids eat the seeds, what’ll happen.” Like it’s time to settle down. It’s time to listen to the American public that has voted and said, we want this and we’re going to see more and more States fall and it is going to be legal. I think it is a foregone conclusion and it wouldn’t surprise me in the next two years. We don’t even have to talk about this garbage anymore and we can laugh about it. Remember that? That was ridiculous. That’s where I hope we end up guys. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me. This was fantastic.

Drew De Los Santos:
Thanks Matt. I was just going to say one thing real quick, is that another reason it’s important is because if it’s one that we all Agree on, like we should hold on to one good thing that people from all walks of life can agree on. We need that right now.

Matt Baum:
Right. Because it seems like there’s not a lot ofs we do agree this country at the moment. So.

Kit O’Connell:
I think in our ideal world, what would I see for the future? You know we are still going to have distinct industries. It’s not like Hemp is going to disappear if we legalize marijuana, because they are so different. I hope we will invest more in fiber Hemp and in all the ways we can use Hemp, if we get rid of all these like you said, just all these distinctions, if we’re allowed to explore the whole plant, but I think it’ll be better for everybody.

Matt Baum:
Most definitely because we’re not going to, in a position where it’s like, okay, so marijuana is legalized. Let’s make cattle feed out of it. No, that is where Hemp will come in. You know, that that fibers woods, plastics, cardboard’s, that is where Hemp is going to come in and it’s going to come in huge and there’s just no way to stop it. It’s just a matter of catching up, education, that’s what we’re here for help you guys and we just have to keep screaming in our leaders and letting them know we want it fights not over. That’s a most important thing to remember big wins in this election, but the fight is not over.

Kit O’Connell:
I agree completely.

Final thoughts from Matt

Matt Baum:
I hope you dug this little break from our usual format, and I hope it was informative too and I hope you understand that. Yes, just because things have changed and we will have a new White House and a lot of people have new governors and senators and congressmen. We’ve still got to stay on them. We’ve still got to let them know we want cannabis legislation in this country, because it is better for everyone from the buyer to the farmer to keep fighting the good fight out there guys and don’t forget, we hear the Ministry of Hemp think that an accessible world is a better world for everyone. So you can find a complete written transcription of this episode in the show notes for this post at MinistryofHemp.com

Matt Baum:
That brings us to the end of this episode, but maybe you have some questions about legislation in your state or who you need to talk to, to help fight the good fight, or maybe you just have some Hemp questions. That’s totally cool and we would love to hear from you. You can call us at (402) 819-6417 and leave your Hemp question on our hotline. We, perhaps this panel we had today, we’ll answer it right here on one of our Q and A shows, or you can also send an MP3 question to me, Matt@MinistryofHemp.com just make sure that your message is in MP3 form so we can play it on the show and be sure to leave your name too so we know who we’re addressing and if you want to read more about this subject, head over to MinistryofHemp.com we have a fantastic story.

Matt Baum:
Hemp after election 2020 legalizing cannabis will make Hemp thrive. It’s one of our featured stories right now, and it really drills down into a lot of these subjects, really informative stuff. If you enjoy informative stuff like that, follow us on all our social medias @ministryofhemp/ministryofhemp and if you want to support us and help us get more of this information out there and push more Hemp education, head to patrion.com/ministryofhemp and you can become a Ministry of Hemp insider. We’ll have a link right in the show notes for this episode, you can click on and when you do it, any amount that you donate to help us out, first of all, I can’t stress how much it helps, but any amount you donate makes you an insider. It gets you access to early stories to podcast extras and all kinds of other cool stuff we’re doing.

Matt Baum:
But first and foremost, it helps us so much. Also, if you dig what you hear, do me a favor rate this podcast, give us a star or even a short written review, because it’s seriously, it helps so much to push us up in search algorithms to get this show in front of people that are looking for more information on Hemp. All right, I can go on about this all day long but I got stuff I got to do. So I’m going to get out of here and I like to sign off the same way every time by saying, remember to take care of yourself, take care of others and make good decisions. Will you, this is Matt Baum with the Ministry of Hemp signing off.

The post Cannabis Legalization & Hemp After The Election (Ministry of Hemp Podcast) appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

On September 17, 2020, Texas Judge Lora Livingston extended a temporary restraining order blocking the hemp flower ban. The policy would ban sales of hemp flower intended for smoking, though other forms of hemp would remain legal.

As previously reported, Judge Livingston blocked the policy at an initial court appearance after hearing arguments from plaintiffs with the pro-cannabis nonprofit Informed Texas. With the extension, the ban cannot go into effect until after the court trial, when the judge will hear further arguments about the legality of the policy. The extension allows hemp flower sales to continue until at least February 1, 2021, the next court date.

While Judge Livingston could still decide to allow the policy to go into effect, this decision seems encouraging for the Texas hemp industry.

Previously: Texas Hemp Flower Ban Could Hurt Texas Hemp Industry

Previously: The Texas Department of State and Health Services’ issued new rules banning retail sales, processing, marketing and manufacturing of smokable hemp flower products. The ban was due to go into effect on August 2, 2020. While the full impact of the Texas hemp flower ban is still unknown, we want to share with you how this new policy is already impacting consumers, businesses, and the Texas economy.

In May 2019, Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed a bill that legalized hemp in Texas, including growing, production, and sale of hemp products. The law banned production of smokable hemp products in Texas, but not sales. Hemp advocates think that this ban was necessary to help the bill pass.

Fast forward to this summer, when the Lone Star State announced these new policies, which ban hemp marketed for smoking. Over 1,600 individuals submitted comments opposing the ban, but the rule was passed anyway against industry and consumer opposition.

The Texas hemp flower ban also bans sales of CBD vaping products like CBD vape juice & cartridges.

It’s important to note that selling raw hemp flowers did not get banned in Texas, only the sale of hemp marketed for smoking. The new policies don’t put any restrictions on how consumers use hemp, including smoking it. Ultimately, anyone selling hemp flower can not market it as a smokable product. They can advertise it as a food additive like cannabutter, a topping for a smoothie, or perhaps to be brewed into a tea. 

The industry responded quickly, launching a lawsuit and obtaining a temporary restraining order against the policy.

Nevertheless, it’s now harder to access hemp for wellness in Texas. Consumers and industry alike will have to navigate the new complications the hemp ban represents. 

Texas consumers and businesses lose education and easy access to hemp smoking products

Even people who don’t smoke hemp seem shocked to hear about the ban.

“Most of our consumers are either taken off guard because they were unaware of it, or not surprised, said Amos Lozano, co-founder of Emjayze Hemp.

“‘Sounds like Texas’ is a phrase I’ve heard a lot.”

Emjayze Hemp now sells pre-made “tea rolls.” That is, a product marketed with the idea that consumers pick up a pre-rolled pack of hemp tea, untwist the top of a single serving and put it into their beverage or food of choice.

Local hemp retailers must shift away from fully educating their customers on how to use hemp products. Customers now need to educate themselves about the benefits of inhalation outside of a natural face-to-face encounter. All because the Texas legislature doesn’t want to allow businesses to discuss a common method of consuming hemp products. 

Vaping consumers could be hurt even more than hemp smokers

Since they can still possess and use the products, it might seem like the Texas hemp flower ban doesn’t really affect consumers. It actually creates a significant barrier to consumers who use hemp for pain relief.

“‘Sounds like Texas’ is a phrase I’ve heard a lot.”

Hemp entrepreneur Amos Lozano on the Texas hemp flower ban

“What I’ve seen is that the sale of flower has come down to retail locations deciding to either sell it or not sell it,” Lozano told us. “The real people who are losing in this ban are those who use vaping products because there isn’t a way to get around it.”

While Lozano can pivot to selling “tea” or hemp flower as a food additive, there’s no similar workaround for vapes.

Sadly, this could lead to people seeking other, less safe methods for pain relief. Many consumers report vaping or smoking CBD-rich hemp is one of the fastest ways to find relief. Cutting out people’s ease of access to their medicine is only creating unnecessary barriers.

Hemp flower ban hurts Texas hemp industry amid economic crisis

Marijuana Moment reported on August 6, 2020, that four Texas companies filed a lawsuit against the ban.

The companies are suing on the grounds that the ban violates the state constitution. They’re also arguing that the Department of State and Health Services exceeded its authority with the ban.

The plaintiffs argue that Texas would lose an estimated 2.9 million dollars in sales tax revenue over the next five years. Crown Distributing, LLC, the lead plaintiff, stands to lose $59.6 million in revenue over the same time period.

“At a time when the Texas economy is reeling from the fiscal impact of COVID-19, it is unfortunate that the State chose to foreclose such a large economic opportunity for our state,” attorney Chelsie Spencer, counsel for Crown Distributing told Marijuana Moment.

On August 19, 2020, Informed Texas reported that the judge in the lawsuit issued a temporary restraining order. This extends the status quo, allowing sales of smokable hemp and vaping products for 14 days until the next hearing. Plaintiffs will be back in court on September 2, 2020.

“It’s awesome that those companies took action immediately to file the lawsuit,” Lozano said, when asked about the lawsuit launched by other brands. “I’m happy that those people pulled their resources together so quickly.”

Lozano looks to the good with the bad with Texas hemp flower ban

As Texas crawls out of cannabis prohibition, proper regulation is vital as it explores the healing properties of hemp and beyond.

Through all the change, there has been a little bit of good come out of this situation. Lozano hopes it leads to a focus on other uses for hemp.

“I’ve talked a lot about what I don’t like about the ban, but let’s talk about what I do like about it,” he said.

“What I like about it is that there is a shift to focus on industrial hemp. The plant can produce plastics, construction materials, and people can do more with it besides smoking it.” 

Lozano said that he believes the Texas ban hemp flower ban, along with any similar rules, will look silly someday. And despite the ban, he remains hopeful for the future of Texas cannabis culture. 

The Texas hemp ban ultimately directly impacts education, marketing, and tax revenue around smokable hemp and CBD vaping products. While Texas is continuing to make great strides towards better cannabis policies, laws such as this just make Texas to lose out on valuable tax revenue and slow the growth of the industry.

Lozano says he’ll keep selling his tea and hope the lawsuit succeeds.

“Right now, all we can do is sit back, wait, and watch eagerly.”

The post Texas Hemp Flower Ban Can’t Go Into Effect Until At Least Feb 2021 appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

Evan Nison joins our host Matt on this episode. Evan has been working to change hemp and marijuana laws in the U.S. for years now, with almost too many lobbying groups to name here. The two compare fighting for hemp and cannabis legalization and what the two separate battles can learn from each other. Despite legalization at the end of 2018, there’s a lot that needs to be done to create a stable, healthy setting for U.S. hemp to thrive.

About Evan Nison

Evan Nison is the youngest member of the NORML Board of Directors and also sits on the Board of Directors of Students for Sensible Drug Policy. He is the founder of the PR firm NisonCo, which connects leaders in the legal cannabis, medical marijuana, and hemp industries with influential journalists. He received the 2011 NORML Student Activism Award and High Times Freedom Fighter Award for his advocacy.

As part of his mission to build socially driven businesses, he co-founded Whoopi & Maya, a women’s-focused cannabis brand with actress Whoopi Goldberg and fellow NORML board member Rick Cusick. Some of his other efforts include a Northern California-based cannabis tour company and Bloody Good Vape & Smoke, a smoke shop in New Jersey he founded with a victim of cannabis prohibition. Evan has been mentioned in news sources such as the New York Times, CNN, Politico, USA Today, NBC New York, Bloomberg TV, Forbes, and has been profiled in many more.

Brought to you by Ott Coffee

The Ministry of Hemp is proud to partner with Ott Coffee.

Hailing from Austin, Texas, Ott Coffee combines their artisan coffee with CBD for a whole new experience in your cup. Ott Coffee provides you with an alert, focused, and mellow state of mind minus the annoying jitters, anxiety, and crashes. They handcraft their products, made with high-quality ingredients that leave you with a relaxed and focused state of mind.

Use the code ott15 to get 15% off your first purchase at Ott Coffee.

Be sure to check out episode 43 of our podcast for Matt’s interview with Alwan Mortada, CEO of Ott Coffee, too. Thanks Ott Coffee, for making today’s episode possible!

You’ve got hemp questions? We’ve got hemp answers!

Send us your hemp questions and you might hear them answered on one of our Hemp Q&A episodes. Send your written questions to us on Twitter, Facebook, matt@ministryofhemp.com, or call us and leave a message at 402-819-6417. Keep in mind, this phone number is for hemp questions only and any other inquiries for the Ministry of Hemp should be sent to info@ministryofhemp.com

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Hemp lobbying with Evan Nison: Complete episode transcript

Below you’ll find the complete transcript of episode 57 of the Ministry of Hemp podcast, “Hemp Lobbying With Evan Nison Of NORML”:

Matt Baum:
I’m Matt Baum, and this is the Ministry of Hemp Podcast brought to you by ministryofhemp.com, America’s leading advocate for hemp and hemp education. Welcome back to the Ministry of Hemp Podcast. Once again, this week, we are brought to you by Ott Coffee, O-T-T coffee, that is. You can find them at ottcoffee.com. Super pumped to partner with these guys because Alwan, who is their CEO sent me more free CBD coffee, and I officially love CBD coffee. You will love it too. I’ll tell you all about it later on in the show and a way that you can get 15% off your first order from ottcoffee.com, so stay tuned for that. Now, if you’ve been paying attention, you know that this is a show about hemp education advocacy. We call it the Ministry of Hemp after all. By the way, not a religious organization, so stop sending me those weird religious emails.

Matt Baum:
That’s not what we do here. We’re just preaching the word of hemp. Okay? You’re welcome to your thing. I’m going to do mine, but regardless. Today on the show, we are going to talk about marijuana for a little bit. It is hemp’s cousin, the same plant, literally the same plant as hemp, but with more THC. Today, I’m going to talk to Evan Nison. He is the youngest board member of NORML. NORML is the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. Now, Evan also lobbied for hemp for a while, and that’s why I wanted to bring him on the show. I thought it would be really interesting to have a conversation about the differences of lobbying for hemp laws versus lobbying for marijuana laws. We ended up having a really interesting discussion. Evan is very cool and extremely busy. I would list off everything he does right here, but I think it’s better if you hear it from him. This is my conversation with Evan Nison.

Meet cannabis and hemp lobbyist Evan Nison

Evan Nison:
And I am the owner and founder of NisonCO PR, the treasurer of NORML National. I’m the board of directors of Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and also the co-founder of a couple of smoke and vape shops in New Jersey and a cannabis tour company in San Francisco.

Matt Baum:
You’re a busy guy, is what you’re saying. Do you have a lot of stuff going on?

Evan Nison:
Yes. Yes. I’m definitely pretty busy. I have amazing teams and if it wasn’t for them, I obviously wouldn’t be able to do, or we wouldn’t be able to do nearly as much, but I am definitely busy and my whole team stays pretty busy as well.

Matt Baum:
Fair enough. Let’s talk about NORML for a minute because I don’t think a lot of people know what that is. What can you tell me about NORML? As I understand it and maybe I’m wrong, but NORML was partially formed with help from Playboy Entertainment. Is that correct?

Evan Nison:
Yes. Actually, that is a less known story.

Matt Baum:
That blew my mind.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. Hugh Hefner actually made one of the original donations that founded NORML, and I believe in may have actually been on the Playboy jet from what I’m told, obviously. [crosstalk 00:03:14]. Yeah. That’s what I’m told.

Matt Baum:
Oh, wow. You weren’t around for that one. You’re a little too young.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. But from what I understand, and I believe High Times was also initially modeled after Playboy, which is why that centerfolds the bud. They were thinking that it would be Playboy or Penthouse, but for drugs instead of sex was like the model of High Times. High Times and NORML actually sort of helped create each other too. High Times helped fund NORML, and NORML promoted High Times, and both of those things sort of rose together, both the entities.

Matt Baum:
I never put that together, but yes, High Times is basically Playboy magazine, but instead of nude pictures, you get pictures of bud.

Evan Nison:
Yeah, exactly.

Hemp & cannabis lobbying with NORML

Matt Baum:
It makes perfect sense. I never really put that together, but there it is. Tell me about NORML. What is NORML? N-O-R-M-L, correct?

Evan Nison:
Yeah, exactly. It stands for the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. Sorry. I almost crack there. The Reform of Marijuana Laws, and that’s exactly what it is. It’s a national organization. Actually, international, but primarily focusing on national and domestic issues in DC and state and local politics here. We’re a grassroots cannabis reform organization, nonprofit. When we say cannabis, we mean all of cannabis, including hemp, of course.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Evan Nison:
We view ourselves as the consumer lobby and we’re one of the oldest organizations standing. We actually were not the first cannabis legalization, nonprofit. Some people think that. That’s not true. There was a group before us called Lamar for legalized marijuana apparently, but one of the first and certainly the oldest longest standing cannabis reform organization. I’m the youngest board member as well. It’s pretty crazy. I set up these board meetings and some of these people helped found the medical marijuana movement and the legalization movement. It feels pretty surreal. I still honestly have a hard time grasping it.

Matt Baum:
How does a kind like you ended up the youngest board member of this massive… I mean, NORML’s pretty big. They’re huge. They’re nationwide. They’ve been around for a lot of years. How do you end up on the board of directors at your age?

Evan Nison:
Well, in my very particular case, I have a mentor who is also on the board who elected me, which helped [crosstalk 00:05:35].

Matt Baum:
Okay. That helps. Sure.

Evan Nison:
That definitely helped in this particular case, but I would think I was at the right place, the right time. Also, it was at a time where the movement was shifting from the 70s style, pi politicians in the face to exaggerate, to like the suit and tie type of deal. I remember one of the only people lobbying for cannabis reform in a suit and tie, and now obviously everyone’s wearing a suit and tie [inaudible 00:06:06] no longer have to because [crosstalk 00:06:07].

Matt Baum:
Right. That’s changed quite a bit. Yeah.

Evan Nison:
Yeah, exactly.

Matt Baum:
Probably for the better. I love the old hippy stuff too, but at some point, if we want to play the game, we have to wear the uniform. Right?

Evan Nison:
Exactly. Right. Exactly. Ironically enough, I actually kind of stopped wearing the uniform because I was mostly doing it to show like “stoners can also be professional,” and now we’re actually professional, so I don’t have to show it anymore.

Matt Baum:
Fair enough.

Evan Nison:
We’ve always been professional. Yeah.

Matt Baum:
This story started with, like you said, Playboy founding NORML. Recently, they also just launched a huge cannabis reform campaign. What can you tell me about that?

Evan Nison:
NORML or Playboy or…

Matt Baum:
NORML and Playboy together from what I understand have launched this cannabis reform campaign.

Evan Nison:
Honestly, I’m not familiar with that.

Matt Baum:
Okay.

Evan Nison:
We have three board meetings a year. I’m in touch with the staff on a regular basis, but we have our next board meeting on a few weeks. I assume that update is going to be coming down. I’ve mostly been focusing with them on the New Jersey campaign. We just did a promotion with Rick Steves, who’s the travel guru, has his own TV show.

Matt Baum:
Oh, yeah. Rick Steves from NPR. Yeah.

Evan Nison:
Yeah.

Matt Baum:
I love that guy.

Evan Nison:
He has a travel show as well.

State initiatives to legalize cannabis

Matt Baum:
Oh, okay. Tell me about the New Jersey campaign. What’s going on with that?

Evan Nison:
We have legalization for Up Cannabis, which would include hemp and hemp is already legal here in New Jersey. We include… It would be adult use for adults over 21 on this case, full legalization, on the ballot, but it’d be a constitutional amendment, so we’d still have to pass a statute through the legislature.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Evan Nison:
But the polling is very, very good. Almost two to one in support, so I’m very excited about that.

Matt Baum:
Okay. Now, let me ask you this. One of the things, we see marijuana on the ballot in a lot of states, New Jersey in this case. What does legalization of marijuana for adults? What does that do for the hemp space? Does that help the industrial hemp space or the CBD space? Does it affect it at all, or are we just talking about marijuana legislation here?

Evan Nison:
In this particular case, we are talking about marijuana legislation, but I believe they all tie into each other in the sense that they’ve all been stigmatized.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Evan Nison:
Hemp itself is not as popular as it could or should be because of its stigma related to cannabis. I believe as the full plant becomes legal, all of its derivatives including medicines, fibers, all of it is going to be less stigmatized and consumed in higher volumes, if that makes sense.

Matt Baum:
Sure. Sure. I’m from Nebraska. We’re an exceptionally red state where we’re never going to make it legal unfortunately because of all kinds of stupid reasons, but we recently just had a bunch of petitions that went out to get medical marijuana on the ballot. It actually passed. Our wonderful governor said, “No. I’m not going to put it on the ballot. Sorry.” Because he’s just that kind of guy, but do you have other states right now outside of New Jersey that are like in NORML sites where you think you can make wins like this?

Evan Nison:
There’s actually not as many ballot initiatives as we were thinking initially, because of like you said, some governors didn’t put on the state. There were some issues with some of the states, but what we’re very excited about is the potential for New Jersey to be a domino effect or the potential for a domino effect from New Jersey. At that point, I imagine New York will probably pass legalization within the next few weeks. They will be giving…

Matt Baum:
New York’s been trying for a while, right?

Evan Nison:
They’ve been “trying.” I’ve lobbied extensively in New York. I think I mentioned I got one of the pens used to sign the New York medical marijuana law. I may or may not have mentioned that. Cuomo is not as supportive as he says behind the scenes.

Matt Baum:
I’ve heard that.

Evan Nison:
A lot of times, he’ll say he’s supportive of something, but he will actually use his political capital to do the opposite.

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Evan Nison:
That’s one of the things that I believe has been happening in New York. I think that that calculus will change. The votes are like… The senate’s blue, the assembly’s blue and Cuomo’s in office. The Democrats in both houses have said that they’re ready to pass this. Every year, they’ve been saying that.

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Nationwide legalization through the MORE Act

Evan Nison:
It’s just the governor. I know [inaudible 00:10:40] has basically say he wants it and not actually try to prevent it with his political weight. I think that calculus in his head might change. Of course, there’s Connecticut, Pennsylvania as well, Maryland. There could be a pretty serious domino effect there. Then, of course, the MORE Act. It got pushed. The MORE Act is going to be voted on in congress before the election. It got pushed until after the election, but that is really what we are trying to achieve is the MORE Act right now.

Matt Baum:
Can you tell us about the MORE Act real quick? Because a lot of people probably don’t know.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. The MORE Act is a legalization. It has a lot of social equity provisions. I’m not the expert in NORML on them, so I don’t know all of them, but it has the social equity provisions. It has adult use legalization. It has support in the house, which is huge. It really is what we want and was one of the reasons that we were founded to achieve is something like the MORE Act. I’m not saying that there won’t be work after, of course.

Matt Baum:
Of course. Yeah. I think hemp people found that out real quick. We’ve got a farm bill and we’re like, “Hooray, we did it.” They were like, “No, you didn’t.”

Evan Nison:
Right. Exactly.

Matt Baum:
You barely did.

Evan Nison:
Exactly. The MORE Act, I guess, is like the farm bills for cannabis consumers. Really, it’s going to be that level of a win where it’s not the full win, but it is a huge win.

Matt Baum:
Right. Okay. Now, just speaking from the cannabis space, what do you say to win these people over? When we have like a governor like we have in Nebraska who thinks it’s a gateway drug to heroin or something stupid, what do you say to these people that accuse you of just being a stoner in a suit that wants to get high? What is the purpose of… What is normal use to normalize this? How do you talk to these people?

Evan Nison:
Great question. In most situations, the way to respond to that, unless you’re talking to an actual elected official is, I myself, just turned 30. I used to say in my 20s, but now I guess in my early 30s.

Matt Baum:
You’re an old man now. You’re not a kid anymore. Sorry.

Evan Nison:
Yeah, exactly. I’m not really college age anymore. I used to say college aged, but now I’m early 30s. Now, most people can probably assume I’m a consumer or most people can assume I’m a consumer and I’m not the right messenger actually.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Evan Nison:
The best thing to do is for me to get a mother or a former cop or a current cop or a judge to make that argument for me. They’re called non-traditional allies.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Evan Nison:
They’re the most impactful at convincing people. When you’re talking about any issue, you’re going to listen more closely to somebody who you’re surprised is supporting it than somebody who… Obviously that person’s a stoner, they’re going to stay there for legalization.

Matt Baum:
Right. The difference between bringing out like a video game playing rapper or your grandmother who like, “This really helped my grandmother’s glaucoma,” or the pain that they’re in or something.

Evan Nison:
Exactly. Yeah. A lot of our job and a lot of my job has been, throughout the years, especially in the earlier part of advocacy, was actually helping other people communicate to the press and to electeds who they would listen to more than me, frankly.

From hemp lobbying to cannabis PR

Matt Baum:
Sure. Sure. You have lobbied for hemp in the past. Tell me a little bit about that.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. Actually, we were talking before the segment, me lobbying for hemp pro bono is what led to me having a PR firm organically, accidentally, I should say. Same thing.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. I think that organically is a nice way to say accidentally, basically.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. I was lobbying for industrial hemp in New Jersey, and I’d put out a press release and a company contacted me saying that they wanted to help support that bill. I was like, “Well actually, I’m doing this for free. You could hire a lobbyist and I’d be happy to manage them, but also I think I could probably just pass this if I have enough time to do it. Right now, I’m doing it a couple hours a week. I’m driving down a train, and meeting with whoever’s down here.” They’re like, “I’m down to do that. Let’s do that.” That turned into a paid lobbying gig. Then, during that paid lobbying engagement, I wound up getting them so much media that they got me PR tools as well, and asked me to focus on PR in addition to lobbying. Then, that led by word of mouth to my first 30 clients, which led to me hiring people. Now, we’re a PR firm and have like 22 or 23 employees.

Matt Baum:
It’s an American success story, [inaudible 00:15:35].

Evan Nison:
We’re like becoming a company. Yeah. We’re becoming a company. We’re becoming a company. Yeah.

Thanks to Ott Coffee for sponsoring our show

Matt Baum:
This is great. Yeah. This is perfect. Let’s take a quick break, so we can talk about our partner this week. Ott Coffee is partnering with us for a second week in a row. For a second week in a row, you can get 15% off your first purchase at ottcoffee.com, or you can hit them up and get a free sample just by paying the $5 shipping. Now, Ott Coffee has figured out a fantastic way to combine CBD and very high quality coffee. I say very high quality because I am a coffee snob. Alwan, the CEO sent me some and I loved it. You can hear our full conversation about how he started his company back in episode 43 of this show. The idea is very simple. You combine coffee with CBD for an alert, focused and mellow state of mind, minus the annoying jitters, anxiety and crashes that come with caffeine.

Matt Baum:
I love coffee and I need caffeine to wake up. It’s a crutch, and I have been thinking about trying to see if I could cut it out of my diet someday, but I love it too much, so I don’t plan on it. Now, another reason I don’t plan on it is because now I can get CBD with my coffee. Just like they said, it takes away that jittery thing. I drink it too fast, I admit, and I drink too much of it. But when you mix it with CBD, it seems to mellow me out just enough, so I’m focused and I’m alert and I’m awake, but I’m not vibrating. My heart is not racing, and I slowly come down the other side. I don’t hit a caffeine crash and decide that I need to grab more coffee.

Matt Baum:
If I do, they have a decaf as well. It’s a part of their relaxation series. It’s a medium roast coffee blend with smooth notes of caramel, chocolate and fruity flavors. I particularly love their productivity series. This is the full caffeinated version. It’s a medium roast coffee blend with smooth notes of caramel, chocolate and vanilla flavors. They are both fantastic. Like I said, you can try a free sample at ottcoffee.com. Just pay the $5 shipping or you can use the code OTT15. THat’s O-T-T 15 for 15% off your first order. Like I said, it’s just great coffee.

Matt Baum:
If you listen to the episode or interview of Alwin, he talks about also being a huge coffee nerd and how he sources his beans and how much they care about quality, free trade, organic coffee, and excellent quality CBD that is infused into those beans. I can’t stress enough how excited I am about Ott Coffee and huge thanks to them for partnering with us to bring you this show. If you enjoy the Ministry of Hemp Podcast, please head over to ottcoffee.com, buy some coffee and use the code to let them know not only are you listening to this show, but you want to support companies that support Ministry of Hemp. That’s ottcoffee.com. As always, I’ll have a link in the show notes for this episode.

Getting to know Evan Nison

Matt Baum:
What was your background? Did you come out of law? Did you come out of city government? How does this start?

Evan Nison:
Well, when I was in college, I never liked classes. I tried my best to not attempt the classes to be honest, but I really enjoyed learning.

Matt Baum:
I did too. Yes. Same here.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. I tried to do things outside of the class, like lobbying, holding press conferences for medical marijuana and things like that. By the time I got out of college, I had experienced lobbying. I experienced holding press conferences. I knew a bunch of legislators and I was kind of well positioned. Again, this is at a time before the industry. There wasn’t many of us who are really involved. There was probably 20 at most. We all knew each other across the country.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Evan Nison:
Maybe that’s an exaggeration, but 20 really, really, really into it people.

Comparing cannabis advocacy with hemp lobbying

Matt Baum:
You’ve lobbied for hemp. You’ve lobbied for marijuana. Which do you think… This might be a silly question. Do you think one is more difficult to sell to the public than the other? Because even though they’re the same plant, one does a different thing and one has less THC. Do you think that selling hemp to a state to get legalized or legalizing marijuana? Which one do you find more of a battle in?

Evan Nison:
That’s a good question. Legalization of cannabis, of high THC cannabis was harder in the sense that we’re talking about “a drug.” We’re talking about addiction. We’re talking about people’s kids. We’re talking about driving. Like there is a lot, there is a lot of really, really sticky issues for public.

Matt Baum:
Sure. Sure.

Evan Nison:
But there was an extreme amount of interest in it. This was more of the case obviously back in the day, but I remember when we put out a first press release of one of our clients going from Wall Street to the cannabis industry, that was like Wall Street Journal covered it on their actual paper, in their front section and things like that. There was just a lot more opportunity to talk to the public with hemp. There is interest in it, but it’s not as much interest, but I think hemp is easier.

Evan Nison:
The real reason that I will say that is because of farming because the Republicans have tied… Especially in congress, the Republicans have tied themselves to farmers in middle America, in Kentucky. That has played perfectly into our narrative… Into their narrative, rather. Whereas with cannabis legalization, we’re talking about inner city, youth being arrested. I guess there would be farming, but I think it’s viewed differently. I want to say hemp has been easier, but it’s been harder to actually have the platform to speak on.

Matt Baum:
It does seem like that because it seems like marijuana was legalized in different states well before we even started talking about hemp and the concerns for marijuana were such that like coming out of the 70s and 80s, where of course, we learned that marijuana just ruins lives and destroys civilizations as we know it, whereas hemp had none of that tied to it other than the fact that it looks like marijuana. It just seems so ridiculous. First, to be fair, the whole thing is ridiculous and it should all be legalized. Period.

Evan Nison:
Yes. Right.

The future of hemp lobbying

Matt Baum:
Okay. End of story. But I can see how the arguments against marijuana, which were so ingrained for racial stereotypes, for crime stereotypes and whatnot. Overcoming that almost seemed to be easier just due to interest whereas hemp right now doesn’t have that same interest outside of some pain relief, helping farms, replacing certain things in the industrial as far as plastics and fabrics and whatnot. What do you think the way forward now that hemp is legal? It’s totally legal, but still having all these problems. What do you see the way forward for hemp being?

Evan Nison:
That’s a good question. Figuring out the issue and making sure that the farm bill is implemented correctly, even if that means additional legislation or fixes is going to be very important. I’m not a hemp farmer. I know there’s incredible amounts of issues. I don’t know all of them in detail, but there’s going to need to be stakeholder meetings with hemp farmers and things like that to really figure it out. I think that the agencies should be empowered to do that, so we don’t have to go back to congress all the time. That would be big because I do think that the federal agencies are not opposed to this. Once congress allows it, they’ll happily regulate it and try to support the industry. They just need the ability and latitude to be able to make the decisions they need to.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Evan Nison:
It’s not often. I actually encourage more bureaucracy [inaudible 00:23:41]. If the agencies don’t have it, then the congress has it and congress has the worst bureaucracy.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Evan Nison:
That’s pretty important. I think also like in a weird way, this is going to tie into psychedelics what I’m about to say. It’s to your point, which I know is totally on top of… Off the map in cannabis, but to your point on hemp being legalized after cannabis, I think that there is a huge faction of people that was like cannabis illegal because there’s a reason. It wouldn’t be made illegal if there wasn’t a reason, and they made that same judgment with hemp. I remember my parents, they’re very open-minded, but they’re like, “No. That doesn’t make sense. There’s obviously a reason they would make this illegal. If it was just a plant, and whatever.”

Matt Baum:
Oh, of course.

Evan Nison:
I think when cannabis became legal and people were like, “Holy shit. We actually were lied to for decades.” Now, they’re reevaluating hemp, and this is where psychedelics comes in. That’s been making much more progress than I would have ever dreamed of.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. Definitely.

Evan Nison:
Like mushrooms are being decriminalized. I think that it all stems from people being like, “Holy shit, we maybe are lied to sometimes about these things.”

Matt Baum:
Absolutely. You mentioned about how hemp has really pushed for federal agencies to make rulings on things. It doesn’t seem… Maybe I’m wrong. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t seem like marijuana is pushed as hard. It seems like marijuana has gone more for a state by state win as opposed to going to federal agencies and saying, “All right. Let’s get a full US-wide lift on this, sort of like we did with the farm bill for hemp.” Am I mistaken here, or is that correct?

Hemp & cannabis in Congress

Evan Nison:
That is correct. Well, that’s part of what we want for the legalization, right? Something like the MORE Act that would bring this conversation to a national level rather than state by state. To some extent, it will be on both levels forever just like hemp and even alcohol laws are now, which is [inaudible 00:25:43] constitution because prohibition, of course.

Matt Baum:
Of course.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. Well, we tried for both, right? The MORE Act, we are trying to get it voted on before the election. It seems like it will be pushed off and I don’t ever want to give credit to him ever again, but I think it’s because of Mitch McConnell.

Matt Baum:
Yeah.

Evan Nison:
Kentucky being… Hemp is just as much of a Republican issue. Actually frankly, hemp is probably more of a Republican issue right now than it is a Democrat.

Matt Baum:
It’s way more of a Republican issue. Most definitely.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Baum:
If you look at where it’s grown, they’re mainly red states.

Evan Nison:
Right. That would be my hypothesis is that because the Republicans took this off as their issue and the Democrats, of course, would go along with it because we would have taken it up as our issue as they are probably.

Matt Baum:
Sure. Sure.

Evan Nison:
Or a Democrat, then it just is a breeze. Right? Cannabis can be like that potentially. There is certainly as much bipartisanship in terms of support or almost as much bipartisanship in terms of support. It’s just the Democrats… I mean, the Republicans haven’t actually made it their issue.

Matt Baum:
Right. Right.

Evan Nison:
If they had to vote yes or no, or abstain, I think they would vote yes or abstain depending on if they thought they needed their political calculus. But it probably will not be their issue, but they’re not opposed to it. You’re not seeing ads either anywhere of saying, “Kamala Harris sponsored…” Yeah.

Matt Baum:
Is that out of fear, do you think? Is that what it is? Like, “We’re just scared to… We know it’s very popular, but there is an older electorate that’s a little [inaudible 00:27:19] about the whole thing and we’re afraid to touch it.” Is it just fear?

Evan Nison:
I think it’s actually just momentum. I think it’s just the fact that it’s been decades and decades and decades and all of these politicians have decades and decades and decades of wreck of audio and video talking about the drug war, all this stuff.

Matt Baum:
Of course. Yeah.

Evan Nison:
The fact that no one’s fighting it is huge. In some levels, it’s not enough, right? We want people to support it.

Matt Baum:
Of course.

Evan Nison:
But like I was saying, there was no ads against Kamala Harris and Biden because Kamala Harris sponsored legalization in the congress. There is opposition against Biden for supporting things like the RAVE Act and the drug war. I think the more that that happens, hopefully the Republicans will take it up, but maybe it’s just because it’s a drug issue or because they were the ones who took the real hard stance in the 90s, and they don’t want to fully admit they were wrong. I’m not sure. It’s obvious to see why they took up hemp as an issue. It’s harder to see why they’re not taking a cannabis.

Is legalization inevitable?

Matt Baum:
Do you think it’s inevitable at this point? Has one too many dominoes fallen already, and this is just going to happen and you can either get on the right side of history or try and push back, but is it inevitable? Is this coming?

Evan Nison:
Yeah, I believe. I think everyone thinks it’s inevitable and almost no one is even really trying to push back anymore.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. It seemed like that, right?

Evan Nison:
Yeah.

Matt Baum:
It just seems like there’s some delay tactics basically, but they’re not even delayed tactics in the sense, like maybe we can push this off until it goes away. From what I’ve seen, especially like McConnell, like you mentioned, who we’ve talked about a lot on this show, he was very pro-hemp and behind his farmers. He’s kind of backed off and disappeared a little bit since then, but he’s fighting a lot of weird battles right now. I’m not defending the guy.

Evan Nison:
Right. Exactly.

Matt Baum:
I can’t stand him, and I don’t agree with anything he says outside if his hemp stance.

Evan Nison:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I am exactly the same place.

Matt Baum:
It just does like whenever we get closer to these elections, they seem to get quieter on these subjects to ensure that their older voting base doesn’t think that they’re trying to legalize marijuana, so the hippies take over the country, which…

Evan Nison:
Totally. The reason that the MORE Act was pushed was not because the Republicans wanted to delay the vote. It’s because there were Democrats within the caucus who wanted to delay the vote and those are Democrats and it’s politically okay. Politicians are like… They’re like scared animals in terms of new things. In some way, you can use that against you or use that against them. If you kick somebody out of office for something, all the politicians take notice of that. They’re very reluctant to do new things. When elections approach, they’re very, very nervous to do anything new or potentially controversial even if it’s not actually controversial. That’s just how they are.

Matt Baum:
Now, I don’t know why I’m even bringing this up, but what has it been like to work with the current administration in Washington? They can’t be friendly to this, judging them on a lot of their other policies.

Evan Nison:
Right. That’s a good question. I should actually ask our lobbyists about the Trump administration. We speak mostly about congress because that’s where most of the action is happening. I think… I don’t know this. This is my belief because we haven’t really talked too much about the White House yet, and I don’t know if that’s just because the MORE Act would still have to get through the senate or whatever. But my hunch is that there is probably a belief that if something gets to the president’s desk, not no matter who they are, but if they’re Republican or Democrat, it will probably get signed by Trump, by Biden, by whoever because for all the reasons we mentioned, like their support, it’s inevitable.

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Evan Nison:
By the time it got to the president’s desk, they will all have to have been in the house and the senate who put it there. Unless we have a warrior, it doesn’t happen this next four years. We have a drug warrior somehow in 2024 or 2025, I guess is when they’d be inaugurated. I think that the president will not be the issue is my guess.

Matt Baum:
Are you calling your shot? Are you saying next five years, you think this happens? Feel free. Call your shot. I’m not going to track you down in five years and be like, “You’re wrong.” Like, “Try again.”

Evan Nison:
If I had $100 bill and I had to put it on one, I would say yes, it will probably get done the next five years.

Matt Baum:
That’s amazing.

Evan Nison:
I don’t think politicians…. Yeah, it is amazing. Just like politicians don’t really want to vote on this, they also don’t want it around either.

Matt Baum:
Right.

Evan Nison:
I think they kind of want it off their plate as soon as it’s convenient.

Matt Baum:
Okay. You signed this and people freak out and go, “Oh, we can’t believe they’d signed that.” Then, you look how much money starts coming into your state and you look how much benefit comes from it. That probably silences quite a few detractors.

Evan Nison:
For sure. States will always… Again, just like alcohol, there will always be places that do not allow it. Right?

Matt Baum:
Sure.

Evan Nison:
I don’t think there will ever be a situation unless we enshrine it into the constitution. Even in that case, like I was mentioning alcohol isn’t fully true now. There’ll always be local bans, state bans, things like that, but there should be national possession legalizations and you can’t get arrested in any place and things like that.

Matt Baum:
100% agree. What do you think is the single best thing that us… You guys seem to be killing it, by the way. NORML is really out there slaying it.

Evan Nison:
For sure.

Consumer advocacy for hemp

Matt Baum:
What do you think the single best thing that we could do in the hemp world? We don’t have a NORML like you guys. You’re representing us. Thank you. We appreciate it.

Evan Nison:
Anytime. Anytime.

Matt Baum:
But what’s the single best thing you think we could be doing in the meantime? Is it literally just like writing your congressman, writing your senator, letting them know you’re interested because we collected ballots. We collected signatures here in Nebraska. It did no good. None. They told us to shut up, even though we got the amount of numbers. What do we do?

Evan Nison:
Yeah. That’s ridiculous. I think making sure that it’s clear what the needs of the hemp industry are, would be very important. If you think cannabis industry needs, you automatically… Well, it’s a different position obviously, but you think banking, you think taxation. There are certain things that the cannabis industry has made it abundantly clear. It needs to be able to thrive. When you think about hemp, there aren’t necessarily as clear of a set of policies that the hemp industry wants any people to adopt. Right? That might just because we just got a huge win in the Farm Act and it has to shake itself out, but I think being clear and concise about that as it shakes out and figuring that out as an industry and community would be beneficial, for sure. Because if you go out and if you have 100 things that you say you want, probably nobody’s going to have time. If you all talk about the same three to five things, you’ll probably get all three to five things.

Matt Baum:
Yeah. Or at least two of them, which would be great.

Evan Nison:
Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Matt Baum:
Come on.

Evan Nison:
Exactly. That’s something.

Matt Baum:
You have been fantastic. It’s amazing your breadth of knowledge on this and everything that you’re doing in to fight for this. We’re rooting for you. We’re on your side. We’re your allies and we’re on your side.

Evan Nison:
I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I’m on your side. We’re all on the same side.

Final thoughts from Matt

Matt Baum:
It’s true. We are all on the same side. Thank you again to Evan for coming on the show. I will have links to all the amazing things that he is involved in, in the marijuana and hemp world. I just think it is incredible that there’s people out there like Evan who do understand that we need to do the dance and we need to wear the suits sometimes, and we need to do our homework and we need to come prepared. We can’t just scream and yell. We’re going to organize. We have to let our leaders know that this is a priority and we have to let them know what those priorities are. Let’s get it together, hemp. Let’s do this.

Matt Baum:
Thanks again to Ott Coffee for partnering with us. Like I said, be sure to check out the show notes and check them out. Speaking of the show notes, here at Ministry of Hemp, we believe that an accessible world is a better world for everybody. There is a full written transcript of this episode also in the show notes. If you need more hemp in your life, we have got all kinds of cool articles up on ministryofhemp.com right now, including another CBD review from a brand called Helix Naturals. They do joint relief balm that helps with pain. Be sure to check that out and check out one of our top posts right now about hemp and plastic. Hemp makes great plastic, so why isn’t hemp plastic everywhere? It’s a fantastic article. Speaking of hemp plastics and hemp fibers, next week on the show, we’re going to be talking to a company that is making hemp shoes.

Matt Baum:
I’m super excited for you guys to hear this one. If you want to be cool like Ott Coffee and actually support the Ministry of Hemp because you liked this show, you like our site and you want to help spread the word of hemp education, do me a favor and review this podcast. Wherever you’re listening to it, give us a star rating or a short written review. It really helps to move us up in the search algorithms so people can find us and head to patreon/ministryofhemp.com, and become a ministry of hemp insider. It’s going to get you access to early articles and podcast extras. I’ve got one from this episode where I’m talking to Evan all about his cannabis tour company out of San Francisco. It’s a little quiet right now because of COVID, but it’s a really cool idea. It’s helping normalize the idea of cannabis farming in California.

Matt Baum:
Head to patrion/ministryofhemp. Become a Ministry of Hemp insider right now, and huge thank you to everybody that already has. We’ll see you back here for another episode next week. Right now, it’s time to go. I like to sign off the same way every time by saying, remember to take care of yourself. Take care of others and make good decisions, will you? COVID is still out there. It’s coming back. Wear a mask, continue to wash your hands, and play it safe, you guys. No joke. Flu season’s here as well. Get a flu shot. If you haven’t, register a vote. This is Matt Baum with the Ministry of Hemp signing off.

The post Hemp Lobbying With Evan Nison Of NORML appeared first on Ministry of Hemp.

In this episode of the Ministry of Hemp podast, our host Matt talked with Ron Fazio COO of Hemp Synergistics. They’ve partnered with Purdue University’s Center for Crime, Forensics, and Security Analysis to develop a new fully portable hemp testing system that allows law enforcement to test THC levels in less than two minutes.

Matt and Ron talk about the current issues with testing hemp for THC levels, the time wasted testing hemp that could be spent on things like rape kits, and how this kind of instant testing could make law enforcement’s job much easier.

In states without legal recreational cannabis, there’s currently no way for police in the field to tell the difference between legal hemp and illegal “marijuana.” As a result, police sometimes arrest truckers shipping legal hemp. While Ministry of Hemp supports full legalization of cannabis, this kind of portable THC testing could mitigate some of the harms of the war on drugs and protect the new hemp industry.

About Ron Fazio & Hemp Synergistics

Ron Fazio founded the nation’s first full-service, accredited crime lab and is the COO of Hemp Synergistics. When his lab experienced a significant increase in THC testing, this backlogged more critical public safety testing needs like rape kits. This inspired him to seek out a new technological solution to portable THC testing.

Hemp Synergistics is a biotechnology company dedicated to making intelligent hemp products. Hemp Synergistics provides industry solutions including remediation services, formulations and manufacturing
of consumer products in the food, nutraceutical and wellness industries.

You’ve got hemp questions? We’ve got hemp answers!

Send us your hemp questions and you might hear them answered on one of our Hemp Q&A episodes. Send your written questions to us on Twitter, Facebook, matt@ministryofhemp.com, or call us and leave a message at 402-819-6417. Keep in mind, this phone number is for hemp questions only and any other inquiries for the Ministry of Hemp should be sent to info@ministryofhemp.com

Subscribe to our show!

Be sure to subscribe to the Ministry of Hemp podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Podbay, Stitcher, Pocketcasts, Google Play or your favorite podcast app. If you like what your hear leave us a review or star rating. It’s a quick and easy way to help get this show to others looking for Hemp information and please, share this episode on your own social media!

Become a Ministry of Hemp Insider and help spread the good word!

If you believe hemp can change the world then help us spread the word! Become a Ministry of Hemp Insider when you donate any amount on our Patreon page!

You’ll be the first to hear about everything going on with our special newsletter plus exclusive Patron content including blogs, podcast extras, and more. Visit the Ministry of Hemp on Patreon and become an Insider now!

THC testing on the go: Complete episode transcript

Below you’ll find the complete transcript of episode 53 of the Ministry of Hemp podcast, “THC Testing On the Go”:

Matt Baum:
I’m Matt Baum and this is the Ministry of Hemp podcast, brought to you by ministryofhemp.com, America’s leading advocate for hemp and hemp education.

Matt Baum:
Today on the show, I’m talking to Ron Fazio. He is the COO of Hemp Synergistics. Ron worked for decades in criminal forensics and just about every aspect of the criminal forensic lab. Well, he’s left to bring his knowledge of how the forensic lab works and along with Purdue’s School of Criminal Forensics, he’s helped to develop three handheld testing units that can measure the THC level of hemp right there on the side of the road.

Matt Baum:
This is huge. This is the kind of thing that can change the way law enforcement deals with hemp interstate commerce even in the strictest of states. I was afraid this one could get real scientific real fast but Ron is a very intelligent guy, and he’s super easy to talk to, and he boils it down so well. I’m really excited for you guys to hear this one. This is my conversation with Ron Fazio.

Meet Ron Fazio

Ron Fazio:
I’m coming from Zelienople, Pennsylvania.

Matt Baum:
That sounds easy to spell.

Ron Fazio:
It is just as easy to spell as you might imagine.

Matt Baum:
I would guess.

Ron Fazio:
We could say Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is probably better.

Matt Baum:
Pittsburgh, outside of Pittsburgh, we’ll say.

Ron Fazio:
Outside of Pittsburgh.

Matt Baum:
Yeah, every knows Pitt, two T’s, Pittsburgh. Everybody knows that one.

Ron Fazio:
With the H.

Matt Baum:
So, Ron, tell me about you a little bit before we get into this new testing, shall we call it a device?

Ron Fazio:
Sure. There’s actually three devices. This is the first of the three. My background has been predominantly in forensics in laboratory testing. So, I’ve worked in the forensic field in multiple states for actually decades. I was able to start and operate a private full service accredited crime lab. We serve predominantly law enforcement agencies, but we also serve defense attorneys and civil attorneys. And we did things from narcotics testing, firearms, crime scene, DWI, the standard kind of normal crime lab test.

Matt Baum:
So how do you go from that background to working in hemp and marijuana testing? How did that happen?

Ron Fazio:
You can’t beat them, join them.

Matt Baum:
Okay, fair enough. I like that answer actually.

Ron Fazio:
Well, the state of Pennsylvania legalized hemp a few years ago, and I was seriously considering applying for at least a dispensary license. And I spent some time with some interesting, very capable people in the industry in Pennsylvania. My background being what it was, I really had some of the most comprehensive, in-depth, yet legal experience in narcotics, specifically marijuana and that really led to my kind of gravitating towards this.

Ron Fazio:
So, at that time, I was working as a senior executive with another organization. I finished my tour with them, and working with Russ Cersosimo and some other people we decided that hemp is, it’s a fantastic industry. It’s growing rapidly. The cannabinoids with the farm bill and the DEA regulation changes made these cannabinoids accessible to pretty much the entirety of the population in the United States, if not the world.

Ron Fazio:
And the bottom line is if people are going to consume cannabinoids, they should be able to get them in a safe and efficacious manner. They should know that the product that they’re taking, if they want no THC, they should be getting a product that has no THC.

Matt Baum:
Preach. Absolutely. That’s what we do here at Ministry of Hemp is push that, definitely.

Ron Fazio:
Yeah. And to do that, you need to have some pretty significant laboratory skills, chromatography in particular and that’s just what I had. So, it’s interesting that my background in testing marijuana as a Schedule I or anywhere from Schedule I to Schedule III narcotic depending on what state you’re in, really led me to where I’m at today. And I love where I’m at.

Working with forensics experts at Perdue University to develop better THC testing

Matt Baum:
So from there, you hooked up with Purdue University Northwest’s newly formed center for crime forensics. How does this happen? You just said, “Hey, I used to work in crime forensics. You guys are working in crime forensics. I’ve got an idea.” You just reached out or-

Ron Fazio:
Well, their director, Dr. Christian Westring and I are colleagues. We worked together in the past. And so, Christian and I remained friends ever since and early on, I talked to Dr. Westring about the possibility of taking an existing forensic test that was in the public domain. Nothing special about it, but modifying it so that it could be used to quantitate or semi-quantitate THC in a field test, simple, easy, yet reliable so that law enforcement could determine the difference between, “Hey, this is hemp,” versus, “Hey, this is really marijuana, and it needs to go to the lab for testing.”

Matt Baum:
I can’t think of a bigger waste of time for law enforcements agencies that are looking at real crime. I read about like how you had said there were things like rape kits that were getting put on the back burner while this long testing was going on so someone could see, is this hemp product hot like over by two or three percentage points which is just ludicrous. When we’re trying to solve rapes or murders, get this crap out of here. It’s just stupid. Is that what sort of pushed this idea forward, your own experience working in these crime labs?

Ron Fazio:
Yeah. So, the test to identify something is being marijuana is very simple. It takes literally minutes. So, a crime lab, any crime lab can knock through hundreds, if not thousands of these in a week. But the test to say, I’m going to measure the amount of THC, and that’s important by weight and therefore, make determination whether it’s industrial hemp or marijuana, turns that test that’s literally a couple of minutes long to a test that takes typically six or more months and cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

Matt Baum:
So why is that? Why is it so easy for them to say, “Yes, this is definitely marijuana,” but when you want to look at something like industrial hemp, what is the difference in that test that makes it so difficult?

Ron Fazio:
Without getting into the science, it’s just the level of instrumentation, the way that you extract it, the way you prepare your sample and the way that you do the test itself. If a marijuana identification typically be done with some color tests, a very simple microscopy and boom, you’re done. Whereas a quantification, that’s how much THC is in there. You have to weigh it. You have to extract a certain amount. You have to extract a certain procedure. You have to run it on some sort of mass spec. You have to be able to measure those ions, or integrate the curve and be able to come up with the amount, and then that calculate how much it was per the original mass percentage-wise.

Matt Baum:
So the problem lies in the fact not so much that like, is this marijuana or is it not marijuana? We have to ask the additional question, “Okay, it’s not marijuana but how much THC is actually in it?” That’s what the problem was?

Ron Fazio:
Is it hemp or not?

Matt Baum:
Got you. So, how do you-

Ron Fazio:
Because they’re the same plant, industrial hemp and marijuana are exact same plant.

Matt Baum:
Just different levels of THC, that’s all.

Ron Fazio:
Correct.

Making THC testing possible on the go

Matt Baum:
So how do you take a six-month testing regimen like that and smash it down into something … We’ll get to the device in a minute, but just smash it down into a test that you can perform in minutes.

Ron Fazio:
Well, it’s not the same test. It’s a different test, and the question is getting back to what you said before, law enforcement doesn’t want to have to investigate, prosecute or arrest somebody if they don’t have to. They got better things to do.

Matt Baum:
They don’t have time, period.

Ron Fazio:
They don’t have time. It’s just a lot of money and effort. But they don’t have any current tools in the field to say, “You know what, this is almost certainly marijuana.” Or inversely, “This is almost certainly legal hemp.” On top of that, different states have different rules. Some states say 1%, some states say 0.3%. I know the federal rule is 0.3% but the states have come up sometimes with a spare rules.

Ron Fazio:
So a law enforcement agency in Texas may differ than a law enforcement agency in Kentucky. And so there’s not one singular thing that you can do up until this point to say, “Hey, this is more consistent with hemp than it is with marijuana.” So the trick is to make a color test, an existing technology and be able to convert it to a color test almost kind of like when you test the pH in your pool. What is the percentage?

Ron Fazio:
The trick is people can misinterpret colors or shades of colors. And so we had to come up with a way to measure the color that was pretty much objective for anybody that’s looking at it. And we did that with the way that the colors or the light is transmissible through the color, if that makes sense. How much can you see through it?

Matt Baum:
Is this like a chromatology test like you were talking about?

Ron Fazio:
It’s a color test and it’s a color test like you do … The basis of it as a color test like you would measure the chlorine in your pool or the pH of something.

Matt Baum:
Yeah, I’m an aquarium nerd so I know all about that.

Ron Fazio:
Yeah, there you go. It’s more complicated than that, but that is the base chemistry going on. The trick again is how do you turn that into something that if you gave that a speck of color to three different people, you might get three different readings. So, the real trick is we’re able to take, or Purdue more correctly, was able to take that and turn that into an objective reading so that anybody could look at that and get the same result.

Matt Baum:
And what does that look like? Is it like a number based?

Ron Fazio:
It’s a number based. Right now, it’s measured in increments of 0.05% of THC and that will come down, that level of discrimination will actually get better with subsequent devices and I’ll go into the devices in just a minute. But the first iteration is a very simple color test. It’s operated very similarly to what existing field test kits that law enforcement use right now. It takes some sample. They put it in there. They shake it up. They look at the color. They can make some interpretative results.

Matt Baum:
Now, let me stop you and ask you real quick. One of the things that I’ve heard in speaking to other people about testing is that when it comes to hemp, it really depends how you test it as well. If you test some of the fibrous stock, you’re going to be fine. But if you test some of the flower, you could be way over. Or if you test the leaf and the flower, the flower could push the leaf over or vice versa.

Matt Baum:
When you say take a sample and test it, how does that work? What are they sampling?

Ron Fazio:
They would have to take a representative sample. Presumably, most of these are going to be flower hemp. That is the smoke or the aerial portions of the plant. And those have to maintain a certain percentage of cannabinoids based on that jurisdiction’s rules. Again, a jurisdiction makes 0.3%, that’s it. No leeway. They may say 1%. Anything above 1%, we’re going to investigate. Anything under it, we’re going to cut them loose. This is just not worth it.

Ron Fazio:
Most of the tests on smokable plant product has actually shown that THC is less than 0.3%. It’s the extracted products where it becomes very, very likely that it’s going to be way above 0.3%.

Matt Baum:
Right, because they’re boosting it during the extraction process basically.

Ron Fazio:
Concentrating it. Concentrating all the cannabinoids including THC. And without the ability to remove THC, you get more often than that, believe it or not, you get products that are above the legal limit.

How police could use Hemp Synergistics THC testing products

Matt Baum:
Sure. It makes perfect sense. So you’ve got … Let’s start talking about the device here. I’m a police officer. I’ve pulled over a truck. It’s hauling flower hemp and I take a look and go, “That sure smells like marijuana to me. Good thing I’ve got my handy-dandy …” what is it called? I was going to say test [crosstalk 00:14:08]. I’m sorry?

Ron Fazio:
TRU, THC Recognition Unit.

Matt Baum:
I like that. That’s nice. So, if they take out their TRU unit, what am I holding? Does it look like a walkie-talkie? Does it look like a space gun? What does this thing look like?

Ron Fazio:
The first iteration, the simplest one is a liquid test kit. So, you open your box, you pull out a test kit. It has everything that you need inside. There is a sampling device and a way to homogenize and take a consistent amount of sample and without going into details which are exceedingly boring, the way to take-

Matt Baum:
I appreciate that. Thank you.

Ron Fazio:
No problem. You take a little bit of the plant material or whatever material. You put it into another device. You grind it with a special disposable grinder. It packs down into the bottom of the cone and then you pick that out and that is actually a very consistent amount of THC or very consistent amount of product.

Matt Baum:
And everything you’ve just described sounds like exactly what I would do if I were going to smoke it, for example.

Ron Fazio:
There you go. You have to grab it first, put it in a bowl.

Matt Baum:
Same rules, okay.

Ron Fazio:
You take that pellet that you’ve made. You drop it into your test container. It’s a very, very small pellet. It’s probably about the size, if you can imagine a pinhead, but now in the shape of the same diameter of pinhead but it’s a ball, a little ball shaped.

Matt Baum:
We’re talking a tiny amount then?

Ron Fazio:
Tiny amount, very tiny amount. You drop it in there and you give it about two minutes for the color change and then you take that and you hold it up on a reading card. And the reading card is imprinted numbers and then you roll it down or move it down the reading card. And the minute that you can see the numbers, you know what percentage of THC you’re at.

Matt Baum:
This is exactly like the Penn-Plax pH test that I use on my aquarium. I literally move the vial down the color spectrum. Only you don’t have numbers, you can see like oh, that matches the color that I’m looking through. There it is.

Ron Fazio:
Correct. It’s always the same color. The trick is how much opacity, how much is in there, how much color. You won’t be able to see the numbers until boom, until you hit the right amount.

Matt Baum:
So there’s no argument. Even if I’m color blind, I can look and say like, “Okay, I don’t see the number one. I don’t see the number two. I do see the number three.”

Ron Fazio:
Correct.

Matt Baum:
Okay.

Ron Fazio:
Correct. Very simple.

Matt Baum:
It’s a liquid like you said. You’re dropping this in a liquid?

Ron Fazio:
It’s a liquid, and everything can go back into the bag. If it turns out it’s above that jurisdiction’s legal requirement and they’re going to investigate as marijuana, they put everything back in the bag, seal it. That bag can be submitted as evidence along with whatever they seize whether it’s a small little baggie of plant material, whether it’s a tractor trailer.

Ron Fazio:
So if somebody wants to come back later and say, “Okay, what did you do? What did you sample? What did you look at,” right there in a self-sealed container. If not, it can go right in the trash.

Technology could see use in hemp industry too

Matt Baum:
What about vice versa? If I am shipping this, could I use this testing unit to show police like, “Hey, I’ve got my own right here. Here’s what I’m hauling. Feel free to take your own sample and do yours and we can compare”?

Ron Fazio:
Yeah, the beautiful thing about this is it’s at a price point and usability that anybody in the industry can use, shop owners, anybody in the transportation business, growers. It is not going to replace like for hemp grower the statutory state laws in terms of laboratory testing. But if they want to go in and they want to get a quick check on whether THC is zoning that day, that week. For a few dollars, they can come in and do the test and know real quick where they’re at.

Matt Baum:
And you’re talking about two-minute test, by the way? You’re not sending it anywhere? You’re not [crosstalk 00:21:15] waiting for results to come back? You shake it up and you sit there and you go, “Oh, this zone of the field is a little hot. Let’s back down on whatever or let’s water more,” I don’t even know how it works.

Ron Fazio:
Harvest early …

Matt Baum:
Exactly. I know there’s things they can do.

Ron Fazio:
Yeah, it gives them the ability to manage their crops a little better. Truckers, I know I got a lab report but what trucker knows how to read a lab report? How do they know that lab report actually meets what they’re shipping? It’s easier to forge something like that. So, it gives them a chance for a few dollars to be able to test really quick and just know where they’re at.

Matt Baum:
And what exactly are they testing for? They’re testing for delta-nine-THC? Is that correct?

Ron Fazio:
Correct, delta-nine-THC.

THC testing units need to be small and portable

Matt Baum:
Okay. And it’s simple enough that like you said, a trucker can do it. A traffic cop can do it. It sounds pretty straightforward. Can I ask how is law enforcement reacting to this? Are they in, or do they like this because it simplifies things? Were they hesitant? I mean, you’ve got Purdue behind you which is a good name to have obviously. They are nationwide recognized crime lab. Is anyone rolling this out yet? Is anyone using it in the field?

Ron Fazio:
Yeah. So, we do have … I’m not at liberty to discuss the particular police departments but we do have partner police departments that will be evaluating this in the field. Undoubtedly, we’re going to get things back that need to be changed or modified for wide acceptance. The really big deal about this the first stage of the three products, and all three are developed and validated within the university.

Ron Fazio:
And that’s a really important distinction. This is not a product that was hatched in by private company and made and trust us it works. This is a product that was tested, validated in a university setting and those data will be published in scientific journals so that anybody can go pull them, see what their reliability is, see what their error ranges, see that they’re truly a validated field test.

Matt Baum:
Right. We’re above board. We’re not just trying to sell you something.

Ron Fazio:
Correct.

Matt Baum:
So, tell me about the units themselves. You said there’s three of them right now.

Ron Fazio:
Correct. The second one works on the same principle but it will be a handheld meter, about the size of two or three decks of cards.

Matt Baum:
So this is small. I mean, it’s not like a heavy bulky thing. You can throw this in the car.

Ron Fazio:
Correct. Police cars are … A lot of people don’t … They probably don’t realize this, but police cars are jam-packed in here. They have to carry a lot of stuff to meet any kind of situations. So, everything that we do has to be designed that’s small, it’s rugged. They can get beaten up. It can be repaired or replaced easily.

Matt Baum:
You can have a mobile crime lab rolling around with Bunsen burners or whatnot.

Ron Fazio:
You can have that. That’s right. That’s a good point. So, this one will be … It’s a very small device. It does the same thing but except instead of holding this up to a card, you put a vial in there. You push a button and it gives you a digital reading.

Ron Fazio:
So, you see the number right there on the screen in front of you and they’re able to write that down or do whatever you need to do. Look at that, it says 0.35. Our internal policy is anything less than 0.7, we’re going to cut loose and have a nice day. But look at that, it’s registering at 2.8. It’s way above anything that we’d expect to see or have. Let’s investigate this as a marijuana offense.

Ron Fazio:
The third device is the most technically advanced of all three. And that’s actually a miniature field spectrophotometer. And that actually will attach, almost certainly, we’ll have attached to cellphones or their existing PDAs to provide the interface. So that interface could be just an app that you can download. And you can manage that app right there on your phone like a PDA and the spectrophotometer, I know it sounds really fancy and all that. They’re not that technically challenging.

Matt Baum:
I’ll take your word for it.

Ron Fazio:
They’re in common use. They really are. And cellphone attached spectrophotometers are commercially available. It’s just being able to take one, having it tested reliably that it can appropriately quantify the delta-nine-THC is that’s where the work is at.

Matt Baum:
So, is this third device, that might be something that is a little more geared towards the hemp grower, for example, the farmer, if you will, that needs to get serious readings right there minute by minute right on their phone?

Ron Fazio:
It could be, and absolutely could be. You may have two departments and let’s say three department and within five miles of each other. One department may have a policy, “We absolutely positively want to have the disposable field test because of whatever reasons.” The next department may say, “We want the metal device because we like more of a unit that has a fixed cost and we can send it in for repair and do what we need to do.” And the third department may say, “Now, we really want the spectrophotometer one because we’re really heavy on the use of our cellphones. We manage more on our cellphones. Our department issued cellphones and that’s what we want.”

Ron Fazio:
So, not one of them right now is specifically designed for a particularly consumer in mind. They’re designed based on that department or that person or that organization’s goals and desires.

Matt Baum:
I assume the price point moves up with each device as well? The first one, the disposable [crosstalk 00:27:30]

Ron Fazio:
The price point moves up but the cost per tests moves down.

Matt Baum:
Makes sense.

Ron Fazio:
Yeah. So the cost per test for the manual one, that’s very high. If you’re only going to do two, three, four of these a week, you’d probably just want the disposable field test kit. But if you’re doing hundreds to thousands a week, it becomes more cost advantageous for your department to have the units and therefore, your test costs are much, much less.

Matt Baum:
And if everything is linked on your phone or computer, whatever, you can instantly send that off to whoever needs that information too.

Ron Fazio:
Some departments have that ability on their phones or PDAs, and they can upload that information directly into their CAD or computer-aided dispatch or records management system, RMS. So, yes, they could potentially do that.

Matt Baum:
I know you can’t know, but do you see any pushback that could come from law enforcement on this? To me, this sounds like exactly what they’ve been asking for because there’s been so many incidents. One of the stories we covered was like a truck driving through Arkansas that get pulled over. Everything got pulled off. The trucker was arrested. They sent it away for testing. Two months later, the tests come back. The trucker has been in jail the whole time and they go, “Sorry, you didn’t do anything wrong. And by the way, we got to throw all that away because it’s garbage.”

The future of Hemp Synergistics

Matt Baum:
This sounds exactly like what law enforcement has been asking for. Do you see any pushback coming?

Ron Fazio:
No, I think there’s … Anytime you have a new technology, it sounds too good to be true. There’s going to be a pushback from certain departments especially in my experience, I’ve seen certain not any particular geographic [inaudible 00:29:14] but I’ve always seen it’s been interesting different parts of the country, law enforcement in different parts of the country will have different ways of policing, different goals and different ways of going at this.

Matt Baum:
Of course.

Ron Fazio:
So, I don’t think that this is going to be selling millions and millions from day one. I think that adoption is going to be slow because law enforcement is, they’re going to be a particular to make sure that this can do what it says it can do. And that they can apply it the way they should apply it. And then two, they’re going to have to roll this into their budgets and the procedures and these things take time. It’s just not an overnight proposition.

Ron Fazio:
Last but not the least, this test is not designed to replace a crime lab test. It is designed to keep out the ones that never should go to the crime lab, those that are the hemp ones.

Matt Baum:
And that makes sense. If you can cut it off right there and say, “We have something that’s going to give us a real solid number that we can look at and say, ‘We don’t need to waste our time with this,'” that is what’s really important.

Ron Fazio:
Agreed. And I think that’s where the value is in this product, is keeping those legal hemp products from tying up the resources of law of enforcement because they have better things to do. They really don’t want to arrest people for no reason. They’re charged with enforcing the law and it could be the state, the county, the city council, whomever says, “This is what the people of that jurisdiction say. This is what you need to investigate.” And they can’t say no. They have to do it.

Ron Fazio:
So, if this gives them the tool to be able to still do that but also avoid sending these unnecessary, very expensive time-consuming test to the crime labs, everybody wins, law enforcement, crime labs, everybody.

Matt Baum:
From your history and perspective, just speaking from what you saw, let’s say these rolls out everywhere. What kind of time save and money save is this reflecting for your local crime lab that’s working on something? What percentage of this test that you saw coming in personally were a waste of your time, were testing marijuana or testing hemp?

Ron Fazio:
When I was actually running the crime lab, it didn’t matter if it was hemp or marijuana, it was all legally defined as marijuana. It didn’t matter if they had point 0.5% THC. This has only been something that’s maybe the last 12 months that’s been an issue. While I have seen some ancillary data that many of the state crime labs do not have the resources or pushback on doing these tests themselves, it’s not technically challenging. It’s very time consuming and expensive, and they got a lot to do, and they have fixed budgets.

Ron Fazio:
There are some private crime labs that will do it and their turnaround time is typically measured three or more months, usually double that. And the cost is $602 and up. It’s not uncommon to see one of these … So, imagine how many people-

Matt Baum:
God bless private industry, right?

Ron Fazio:
That’s per sample by the way. So in the case of the truck driver, they would have to take at least 28 samples to identify the entire truck, at least 28. It’s the minimum.

Matt Baum:
That’s 600 bucks a pop.

Ron Fazio:
At least. So, nobody wants to spend that money.

Matt Baum:
No. I’m in the wrong business obviously. This sounds amazing and I don’t know, not knowing … Not being a scientist myself and not working in the field, from what I’ve read and talking to you, this sounds like it is going to change things, like literally change the game when it comes down to “I’m a police officer” or “I am a trucker” or “I am a hemp farmer.” This sounds like every step of the way, you could be saving a lot of time, a lot of money and just covering your own ass when it comes down to it, if you will.

Ron Fazio:
Yeah, though from our perspective, here we are in the hemp business and we’re doing very well. We have an obligation to serve and to take care of all members that are in this field. That became boom, literally almost overnight legal and it flooded the markets. And it’s really unfair to ask that our existing laws and/or policies in each and every jurisdiction is able to just change their policies overnight. It’s not fair to expect.

Ron Fazio:
So, we hear these stories, “And grandmother gets arrested at Disney World,” and, “The trucker gets arrested and his vehicle is impounded.” And as a scientist, my first question is how do I fix that? I should fix it.

Matt Baum:
It is such a colossal waste of time and money.

Ron Fazio:
Colossal, and nobody likes it. There’s not a single person that gets involved in that from the police officer, to the jurisdiction, to the courts, to the crime lab, to the person getting arrested that thought, “You know that was a really good experience. We should do that again.”

Matt Baum:
The company that’s selling it or the company that’s buying it. This is a massive pain that goes all the way back to the farm. It’s just insanity.

Ron Fazio:
Correct, yes, it is. It absolutely is. And if we can take just half of those cases and eliminate the need to go to the lab, that’s thousands of people that didn’t have to go through this. And that’s a true benefit we’re bringing to the market.

Matt Baum:
And not just the people didn’t have to go through it, that’s thousands of traffic stops or tested officers don’t have to worry about and can do their job and take care of real issues.

Ron Fazio:
Correct. They’ve got a lab test in the field that says, “My internal policy, my training in this lab test, so I was able to move in this direction and it’s substantiated by this field test.”

Matt Baum:
Right, and take it out of the officer’s hands. You don’t have to be a scientist. You don’t have to make … And you also don’t have to make a judgment call that may or may not be wrong. “Here you go, you’ve done your job, the little boxes were good, we’re good. Have a nice day.” I think it’s-

Ron Fazio:
“Or it’s hot and I need to take you in.”

Matt Baum:
Right. “And I’m doing the right thing because this is my training and it’s telling me to do so. Sorry about that, I’m going to have to ask you to step out of the car,” or whatever.

Ron Fazio:
When we think about it, for every one person that ends up with what they think, what they thought was hemp, it turns out to be legally defined as marijuana, there’s got to be 10 more, 20 more that don’t. They actually have a legal hemp product. And now it’s those extra 20, those extra 10 that were hopefully going to be able to help.

Matt Baum:
Yeah, without a doubt. Man, Ron, I know you’re a scientist but you’re doing the work of the angels here. And we appreciate it, man. Thank you.

Ron Fazio:
My pleasure.

Final thoughts from Matt

Matt Baum:
Thanks again to Ron for coming on the show. I really enjoyed talking to him. And in subjects like this, when it comes to testing, that seems so simple but can be so complex. And I can’t stress enough that putting a testing device like this in the hands of police, how much it’s going to change shipping hemp, especially through these states that aren’t quite as hemp friendly as some other ones.

Matt Baum:
I’ll have the picture of the device in the show notes for this episode as well. Ron and I went on to talk about the DEA and some classifications that they need to work on that will also help. But I’ll save that one for another podcast. It’s really interesting and I’m excited for you guys to hear that too.

Matt Baum:
That brings us to the end of another Ministry of Hemp podcast. Thanks again to Marissa for hooking up this interview, really cool topic and I love talking about stuff like this. And if you dig what we do here and the hemp education and maybe you’re learning something and you want to help spread the word, head to Patreon/ministryofhemp. There’s also a link on ministryofhemp.com that you can just click on.

Matt Baum:
And any amount that you give makes you a Ministry of Hemp Insider. It gets you access to early articles, to podcast extras, a bunch of other stuff too. And like I said, it helps us spread the good word of hemp education. If you believe that hemp can change the world like I do, become a Ministry of Hemp Insider. It helps so much.

Matt Baum:
Speaking of ministryofhemp.com, don’t just take my word for it. Head over to our site where we’ve got a new CBD review of Receptra Naturals Serious Rest tincture. We’ve also got a really cool story about how more and more pro athletes are using CBD for recovery, energy and focus. The football season is starting this week, so I hope those guys are stocked up.

Matt Baum:
We also have a very cool article about CBG. It’s an introduction to cannabigerol. CBG is very hot right now in the CBD world, so it’s good one to read. Figure out, is this something that can help you that you might want to add your regimen? Check all those articles out over at ministryofhemp.com. And if you need more Ministry of Hemp in your life, you can follow us on all of our social media, @MinistryofHemp, /ministryofhemp. We are everywhere. We’re constantly throwing out cool stories, links to cool people who are doing amazing things in the hemp universe.

Matt Baum:
And if you have questions, call me, 402-819-6417. And leave me your hemp related question after the beep and we will answer it on this show. Speaking of which, next week, we are going to be talking about scams. We talk a lot about what CBD does. We’re going to take a break and talk about what it doesn’t do. That is going to be a fun one.

Matt Baum:
And before I get out of here, I just want to mention. Ministry of Hemp believes that a more accessible world is a better world for everyone, so you can find a full written transcript for this show in the notes as well.

Matt Baum:
All right, that’s it. It’s time for me to go. And I like to end the show the same way every time by saying remember to take care of yourself, take care of others and make good decisions, will you? This is Matt Baum with the Ministry of Hemp signing off.

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